00:00:10:09 - 00:00:34:18
Jaz
Hi there and welcome to this episode of Psych Attack! I'm Doctor Jaz MacDonald. In this episode, I have a new format for you. Today I'm joined by three guests instead of one. Rather than taking a deep dive, on a single area of psychology research or practice. We're going to discuss the Australian TV drama series Apple Cider Vinegar, released on Netflix in 2025.

00:00:34:20 - 00:01:00:25
Jaz
The focus of the series is Belle Gibson, a social media wellness influencer. In the series, Bell posts publicly about her experience of brain cancer and promotes alternative approaches to treatment to her millions of Instagram followers. And through a recipe app that was promoted by Apple called The Whole Pantry. The primary conflict of the series being that Bell never had brain cancer.

00:01:00:28 - 00:01:32:10
Jaz
So each of us here brings a lens to our viewing of the series, informed by our own life experiences and professional expertise. We're going to take turns highlighting an issue within the series and leading a group discussion. We're aiming for a kind and dynamic conversation, hoping to draw, your attention to some new ideas. We're also really keen to see where our perceptions and experiences kind of overlap, and to also see how we might think about things differently.

00:01:32:12 - 00:01:59:02
Jaz
So we'll start by giving a little bit of an intro to ourselves, just really briefly. So my area of expertise is in trauma exposure and reactions as well as mental health. I have a PhD in psychology. And I am a trained social worker with experience in mental health assessment. And mostly I spend my time doing this podcast and working at an Australian research institute in the areas of trauma and mental health.

00:01:59:04 - 00:02:02:01
Jaz
I might throw to Erica next.

00:02:02:04 - 00:02:38:18
Erica
Thanks, Jaz. Yep. Hi. Thanks for having me. My background is psychology and public health. And also, complementary medicine. So I also practiced as a herbalist. So in the context of this discussion, that sort of gives you a little bit of insight into my background. I, left my academic position at the University of Technology, Sydney, earlier this year, and I'm now a, professional coach, ADHD, coach and career leadership coach.

00:02:38:21 - 00:03:08:08
Erica
But my broad area of focus in terms of my research is health and wellbeing, specifically looking at, health care decision making, both patients and, well, the public and practitioners and, So more recently I've been focusing on, the new area that I've gone into. So neurodivergent and ADHD. Yeah. So that's very briefly me.

00:03:08:10 - 00:03:11:13
Jaz
Thanks, Erica. I throw to Suzie.

00:03:11:15 - 00:03:36:15
Suzie
Hey, Jaz. Yeah. My area is slightly different area. I have a PhD in literature and philosophy, and my expertise is analyzing esthetic forms. Including television shows. I currently work at Charles Sturt University, and, Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this panel.

00:03:36:17 - 00:03:39:28
Jaz
Lovely to have you, Suzie. And Donna.

00:03:40:00 - 00:04:09:20
Donna
Okay, well, I'm from a really different area to the other two as well. So it's really interesting the different people you've put together. Jaz. So I'm a sociologist at Charles Sturt University and my area is gender. So I look at the world through the gender and feminist studies lens. So I'll be coming to an analysis of the program from that perspective, which might be a little bit different.

00:04:09:22 - 00:04:28:02
Donna
And yeah, I'm really interested in the social, the cultural, the, the problem that we tend to look at women differently to how we look at men in society. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to the discussion. Thanks for having me.

00:04:28:05 - 00:04:49:06
Jaz
Beautiful. I really, excited to have the three of you here. And I think that, my sense is there's, a bit of overlap, but there's also a lot of difference in the levels of kind of analysis in the way that we've been thinking about the show. So that's kind of exciting as well, especially for, for myself being very kind of individualistic and thinking.

00:04:49:06 - 00:05:18:19
Jaz
And that's sort level. And then starting to tap you folks on the shoulder and see how you're broadening perspectives and thinking about this more mezzo macro level things is really exciting for me, folks at home, before we dive into, any further discussion, we we just have a couple of points that we want to make. So, the first one that's worth mentioning is no one in this panel has real world kind of connection to the events that are covered in the TV series.

00:05:18:21 - 00:05:46:00
Jaz
The people portrayed in that TV series, or to the to the, production of the, the TV series, as a whole. And we also want you to keep in mind that the series covers a few sensitive issues. And so the conversation that we have today is likely to tap into to some sensitive issues. So, please be kind to yourself and keep in mind that we might be we will be talking about, cancer and terminal illness.

00:05:46:02 - 00:05:54:23
Jaz
We'll be talking a bit about, very likely family and domestic violence and also about mental health. I was going to throw to you, Suzy. Yeah. Look, I.

00:05:54:23 - 00:06:30:01
Suzie
Mean, I have to say the obvious, but sometimes the obvious is really important, and that's the fact that none of us personally know the, the protagonist or antagonist of the series, which is Bill Gibson and show my last name is Gibson, and I'm in no way related. So there is no conflict of interest. So there's no way we can actually undertake an assessment of character based on the person we're dealing with, the character as depicted in the series, so that there is a gap.

00:06:30:04 - 00:06:51:15
Suzie
And I think there needs to be recognition of that. And on that note, people might think, well, why analyzing a text when it's not the real world? Well, the thing is, texts are the interface between us and the world. That's how we negotiate the world often. I mean, we we do it through language to begin with. The language we're currently using.

00:06:51:17 - 00:07:16:01
Suzie
And language is a form of text too. So there's always a mediator effector between us and the real world. And looking at esthetic forms like this television series, it often reveals things about us, the way we respond, the way we interpret it. It actually blows back on us too. So it's very revealing sort of activity in all sorts of ways.

00:07:16:08 - 00:07:36:06
Suzie
It reveals individual character, it reveals cultural that values, social values, potential sexism, all those sorts of things. So it's always fascinating to look at texts because they, they tend to reveal us as much as we reveal them.

00:07:36:09 - 00:07:36:29
Erica

00:07:37:01 - 00:07:39:07
Jaz
It's a nice point, Erica.

00:07:39:09 - 00:08:06:18
Erica
Yeah, I guess I just wanted to highlight that, we are going to be talking about health care decision making, and, sometimes that can, I guess, bring up a lot of conflict with people, around making judgments about people's health care choices. And I just wanted to be clear that we're discussing some issues that might be raised by the series.

00:08:06:18 - 00:08:28:22
Erica
We're not making any kind of judgment about the kinds of, health decisions that people make. Yeah, they're very personal. And we certainly won't be dismissive or diminish, the type of health choices that people make. So just sort of giving everyone that context, we're trying to make this a safe space.

00:08:28:24 - 00:08:51:20
Jaz
All right, folks, let's dive in. I, I'm going to go first because I'm going to lead by example and take take the privilege of first position. But mostly what I note is it's much more individual than as, as I flagged the thing that popped out to me that I wanted to focus on was much more individual. So I thought we got that out of the road.

00:08:51:20 - 00:09:16:06
Jaz
Then we can zoom out and think about some more kind of, interconnected, broader things. I want to talk about the power of social relationships that come out in this TV series. This idea of parasocial relationships is something that's been on my radar for maybe about 12 months, and the show exemplified it really well. Can I get a just a read in the room?

00:09:16:06 - 00:09:21:15
Jaz
Is this something that you're like, yeah, really familiar with this, or is this kind of new for folks in the room?

00:09:21:17 - 00:09:30:24
Suzie
I wouldn't mind you just sort of elaborating and why the parasocial relationships in this particular series fascinate you?

00:09:30:26 - 00:10:00:04
Jaz
Absolutely. Parasocial relationships are a phenomenon that's been studied since about the 1950s, and it pops up in a really interesting way in this series. But I want to give a little bit of context first before we bring it to how, Bell and Miller's relationship is set up within the show. So it was a phenomenon that was set up, or kind of explored in the 1950s when it comes to traditional media like, anchors in TV news and also in radio.

00:10:00:06 - 00:10:25:14
Jaz
And it's, it's basically started as a media, as a marketing and communications phenomenon. And so the idea if, well, like we actually do in podcasting, if I'm looking into the camera or if I'm talking to the audience, if I can give them the perception that they're there in mind and I'm speaking to them, that it leads the audience to, to feel engaged, and to start developing what's called parasocial relationship.

00:10:25:14 - 00:10:45:20
Jaz
So I don't know if you're familiar with, like, the parody anchorman, but he has that phrase at the end of every time he closes the show is like, stay classy, San Diego. Like he's talking directly to the audience and the like. Build this trust with him. So people tune in when there's high, high competition between personalities and presenters.

00:10:45:23 - 00:11:04:29
Jaz
Then we want to build a little bit of that connection with the audience. And it's, it's started to lead more and more to the marketing teams behind, various productions to say you know, you should just you should give a little bit more information about you personally. You should tell the story, but then you should have a personal remark about it.

00:11:05:02 - 00:11:26:05
Jaz
So starting to build an audience perception of authenticity and trust. And ultimately it's what it's really leading to. Or in this, kind of regional setting setting in terms of marketing is having purchase intent. The more I know this person, the more I identify with them. I kind of trust them. And so I'll become a loyal, a loyal viewer.

00:11:26:08 - 00:11:48:19
Jaz
So all these little interactions, these, they're called parasocial interactions. When I say listeners at home or when Ron Burgundy says stay classy, San Diego, those built up over time. The presenter is sending a one to many message to all of the audience, but the intention is for the person at home to start to perceive a 1 to 1 connection.

00:11:48:22 - 00:12:13:15
Jaz
And a parasocial relationship is when these when these interactions build up and the audience member, starts to have a, a unilateral. So it's one way, but a sense of a dynamic social and psychological connection with the presenter. So we see this in talkback radio, that idea of having people call in, having a limited interaction but feeling connected, connected to the show.

00:12:13:15 - 00:12:58:12
Jaz
So things like, you know, long time listener, first time caller, we see it, like I mentioned, on podcasts. But it's yeah, really, really relevant when it comes to social media influencers and the way that they show that in the show is, where we're kind of led to think that Bell and Miller have an established relationship, and we see a lot of their interaction where Bell is commenting on Miller's posts online, liking things like referring to his babes the whole time, setting up this slack connection between the two of them, and then partway through the series, when Bell meets Miller for the first time, face to face audience is kind of surprised you

00:12:58:12 - 00:13:34:04
Jaz
might have seen it coming. Okay, I'll leave that to to you folks and what your reaction was. But that that interesting set up of actually this whole time where Bell has been following and admiring and feeling connected to Miller. But the whole time Miller doesn't really know who Bell is. And social media is kind of really influential in this way in that or different from traditional media, because there is this perceived interaction where I could have a parasocial relationship with someone on social media and they might like my comments, they might repost them.

00:13:34:11 - 00:13:49:16
Jaz
All of that is going to build up my sense of relationship and connection to them. But ultimately, I have more of a connection to them than they have to me. There's a little bit of a rant to get us started. Thought so far. I've got plenty of other things.

00:13:49:19 - 00:14:21:28
Suzie
I mean, what you saying that I mean, it's also built on on a large fantasy, isn't it? It's the fantasy connection. And when you think that it was tied in with advertising and it's about building a rapport, I mean, we all know that this is obviously fake. And I just got the feeling that Bell was playing the game like she was she was repeating, and she was imitating that kind of rapport.

00:14:21:28 - 00:14:50:29
Suzie
She sort of adopted similar behaviors to become to become the individual that others have. Fantasy identifications with. So to me it was a two sided thing, like she kind of knew what the other was doing, and she responded in kind, and then she imitated to the point that she outstripped the mentor and became the dominant party who had the following.

00:14:51:02 - 00:14:58:24
Suzie
So I thought that was kind of fascinating. Anyway, I just thought I'd jump in there. So what anyone else thought.

00:14:58:26 - 00:15:32:20
Donna
Well, that's the social media problem, isn't it? The problem with social media is that it is about a connection that we often don't know if it's real or if it's not. We don't know who we're talking to when we're on social media. But somebody who's adopted the profile, or it could be your friend and it could you could be talking to somebody young and sexy and exciting who's presenting themselves like that, and who's appearing to you like that in your mind's eye.

00:15:32:20 - 00:15:35:13
Donna
And that could be anybody.

00:15:35:16 - 00:15:50:00
Suzie
Exactly. Like, there's there's there's a lot of stuff you can get away with when it's mediated online. You know, you have your online personality and then there is the offline that a lot of people obviously don't have access to.

00:15:50:02 - 00:15:50:26
Erica

00:15:50:28 - 00:15:54:05
Suzie
So there's a lot of room for manipulation.

00:15:54:08 - 00:16:25:03
Erica
I was just thinking about what that means in terms of building trust. So and I guess this is I'm thinking about it in the context of the kind of health decisions that people are making and the trust that they have in these wellness influencers. And, that kind of parasocial relationship is very key to that, that trust and and trust is a very strong driver, one of the strongest drivers in how people make decisions about their health care.

00:16:25:05 - 00:16:34:01
Erica
So, it it can be very dangerous if, if it's used in the wrong way.

00:16:34:03 - 00:17:05:05
Suzie
I mean I also think what's forgotten, I mean and this is with social media or with legacy media, you're dealing with the telescoping like when you're dealing with a camera, the camera takes an image of something but not what's beyond that, not what's outside the parameters of the camera. And social media influencers know that all too well, so they have little fragments of their life that look fantastic in building up this fantasy image of themselves so that you fall in love with them.

00:17:05:05 - 00:17:31:25
Suzie
You fall in love with the idea that the the fake cancer by eating healthy and I look amazing and and you again, it's fading into dreams and desires and emotions that drive what what we what we really want all the time. So. So it is an emotive sort of drive constantly, which is why people often want to believe it because they want to live their fantasy.

00:17:31:27 - 00:17:55:19
Suzie
Everyone does. That's sadly what it comes down to. And people do exploit that. And clearly, in the case of Belle Gibson, she was very, very clever. But also clever to the point that she believed her fantasy too, which also takes it to another level. Like she sort of knew it wasn't true, but she also didn't want to believe it wasn't true either.

00:17:55:19 - 00:18:02:06
Suzie
So this, this, this, this battle with truth that's constantly going on,

00:18:02:08 - 00:18:29:26
Jaz
And the context of social media and influencing is that where and and I'll say where because 51% of people in population studies, have at least one parasocial relationship. So, of course, what we're seeing with Belle from the way that the show is framed around her mental health and fantasy and all these things in this example is particularly negative, but broadly speaking, is not a negative phenomenon.

00:18:29:26 - 00:18:54:13
Jaz
51% of people have at least one social parasocial relationship. And in social media, it's this kind of muddying, like all the things that Suzie's saying. And on top of that muddying, well, I can connect with people that I really do have real world relationships with and the same platform that I can connect with, people that I don't personally know in the same kind of ways and have access to them.

00:18:54:13 - 00:19:21:26
Jaz
And we know, through research on parasocial relationships that, influencers use different platforms to kind of drip feed information about themselves. How realistic it is is questionable. But with Bell and a range of other influencers, there's this perception of, this is one of my peers, this is someone who's gone through what I'm going through or what a person I care about is going through, and I think we'll touch on this later.

00:19:21:26 - 00:19:46:05
Jaz
So I won't go into detail about, you know, where people want to get trusted information. But I will say that the research on parasocial relationships says they don't develop between a person and someone talking on a topic that the person who formed the parasocial relationship wasn't already interested in. They're going out to seek that community they going out to look for.

00:19:46:05 - 00:20:11:01
Jaz
Where have they been? Maybe marginalized is a bunch of research that shows how important parasocial relationships have been for different, marginalized groups, where you're not seeing in your own community folks who look like you, folks who've had had, experiences that you've had. And so it can be really protective, like there's a lot of research that shows it builds social support in the absence of real world support, which I think we'll probably talk a bit about as well.

00:20:11:03 - 00:20:17:15
Jaz
Bell wasn't getting the social support from her networks that she, she might have otherwise gotten.

00:20:17:17 - 00:20:59:10
Erica
Yeah. That's a really good point Jaz. And I think, and just like unconscious that I made that comment before about those wellness influencers, it being potentially dangerous, that level of trust that people can have and that really comes from the type of message that the influencers giving, around health. And I guess an example of that is looking at the type of treatment that Mila chose to have and sort of touching on what you talked about, too, Suzie emotion, being involved in a lot of that as well.

00:20:59:12 - 00:21:20:22
Erica
And I think, I think, when people enter into these relationships, they're going into it in good faith that the people that they're engaging with are giving them, you know, good advice. And they can trust that person. And, and that's where the danger is. Yeah.

00:21:20:24 - 00:22:01:10
Donna
I agree with that. I'm not kind of convinced that an influencer is somebody that we should ever connect with. And ever listen to, because I think there is something about them where they are in it to become popular and to make money from social media platforms. And if they're not a healthcare professional and they haven't done some training, but they're actually coming from their own personal experience and they are attempting to achieve popularity with people who look at their apps so that they can make money.

00:22:01:12 - 00:22:34:19
Donna
I can't see how they could become anything other than deceptive and problematic. So whilst I think, yes, social media could be used to unite people and connect people, particularly people who are struggling, they might be in rural areas or they might be from a different nationality, or they might be somebody coming out. They need to be connecting with real people who are experiencing the same thing, not an influencer who's trying to make money using social media.

00:22:34:21 - 00:22:38:01
Erica
Yeah. There's an agenda there isn't there. Don't know. Yeah.

00:22:38:01 - 00:22:53:26
Donna
Yeah yeah. Which makes us unsafe. Their agenda makes us unsafe and it's something we should know more about. But people seem to take it on face value like oh look, here's this really nice person who's saying these things to me.

00:22:53:28 - 00:23:18:26
Jaz
I agree, I think that that healthy, skepticism or distrust of, influencers as influencers is a good thing. I think it's pretty tricky to know where to draw that line of when identifying when it is, you know, if the intention is to earn income or to influence. I think we're very, nicely kind of, starting to unpack or could be shifting onto some other points.

00:23:18:26 - 00:23:48:17
Jaz
So I just wanted to highlight, I think, a couple of things that are interesting from the parasocial relationship. Let's external to influencers. And one is what well, broadly, the spaces where people start to form parasocial relationships tend to be around beauty and wellness and most often influencers, gamers, actors, singers and athletes. And interestingly, you don't have to be human.

00:23:48:19 - 00:24:16:17
Jaz
That can be animal influencers or animal profiles on social media that folks really get a sense that they start to know this animal and are connected with this animal, but also fictional characters. So research is pretty consistently shown that folks who develop parasocial relationships with characters that they connect with, that they have a sense of social connection and that, it makes them feel like a scene.

00:24:16:20 - 00:24:39:14
Jaz
And the kinds of questions in, in, surveys, if we're trying to assess whether someone has developed a parasocial relationship is, you know, true or false or how likely we agree with things like occasionally I wonder if X is similar to me or not. For me, X could be the perfect partner. If I knew X in real life and trust them completely.

00:24:39:17 - 00:25:04:24
Jaz
So obviously that's really concerning with two things. The group is raised here, right? And if I knew X in real life, I could disclose positive thoughts about myself honestly and fully to them. And so this is a continuum we're talking about here. But I mean, I'm not going to ask you to necessarily disclose, but I know that this fictional characters or folks who I've thought I had a real sense that I know them and I just trust them.

00:25:04:24 - 00:25:24:03
Jaz
I want to buy that product. I've been a bit of an Apple product fangirl for about 15 years, and I can put that down to Jony Ive, the head of design. Apple led the way in having the designer of the company do ads, where he spoke about what he was passionate about and the technology behind that. And they're all up close.

00:25:24:03 - 00:25:46:05
Jaz
Shots is very charming, very good looking man talking about product development. And I, I fully bought into that. This is a boutique product. This is something that they really care about. It's artisanal. Of course we know. We know now that's not the case. Or if we know the show Parks and Rec, then who ends up with Leslie?

00:25:46:07 - 00:26:06:13
Jaz
I would be friends with Ben. I know I have a parasocial relationship. I see this character, and I think Ben would be a great friend. I would have a drink with him. So, of course not all people develop these, but I. Yeah, I found this. I've always found some really interesting topic. And with interesting to see that come out, for better or worse in this show.

00:26:06:15 - 00:26:07:25
Donna
Who's Ben again?

00:26:07:28 - 00:26:17:13
Jaz
Ben. Ben is the guy who ends up managing the city and marrying, spoiler alert, but it's been out for a long time. He marries Leslie Knope.

00:26:17:15 - 00:26:21:01
Donna
Yeah, right. So it's a TV. It's a it's a series.

00:26:21:04 - 00:26:23:01
Jaz
Yeah. Parks and recreation.

00:26:23:04 - 00:26:25:18
Donna
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right, right.

00:26:25:21 - 00:26:48:00
Jaz
So I do want to kind of finish out that part before we move on by saying, if you're interested in this kind of topic, and also thinking about when that relationship breaks down because that's ultimately what's happened to you. Right? Belle had, deceived and broken a relationship in a trust with a lot of people who cared a lot about her and the things that she was talking about.

00:26:48:03 - 00:27:09:21
Jaz
The light hearted version of that is this book. There's a chapter in here that's called This sandwich is morally problematic, but it's also delicious. Can I still eat it? That's actually by the writer of Parks and Rec and various other TV shows. And what happens when you have a fandom or an interest in someone who ends up morally letting you down?

00:27:09:23 - 00:27:45:24
Jaz
For a much more serious, deep dive that, I think is pretty important at the moment. Is this one, clear data, monsters. What we do with great art by bad people. There's a whole chapter on fandom and about the commercialization of your fandom to to buy a product. And I picked this book up because I wanted to know how to have conversations and think about artists who I had previously valued, who through the MeToo movement, turned out to be folks that I no longer wanted to to be interested in or enjoy their art anymore.

00:27:45:27 - 00:27:48:03
Jaz
So thank you, Taylor.

00:27:48:05 - 00:28:15:26
Donna
When you were talking, I was thinking about that actually, like how we deal with because I think, and also that I really like Neil Gaiman has just been accused of, trends, aggressions, sexual transgressions. Do I keep reading Neil Neil Gaiman books? I'm in the middle of one, and my decision has been, yes, I will keep reading it.

00:28:15:26 - 00:28:48:10
Donna
Just like I keep listening to Beethoven and just like, you know, because what I think is if you delve into the lives of people, over time, there is a lot not to like about, a composer, an author, a musician, many musicians who have behaved appallingly in their lives. But there's can be particular types of moralities in different subcultures that make the decision.

00:28:48:10 - 00:29:01:03
Donna
Well, now this person, we will and I think they call it cancel now, don't they. We will cancel this person. You know, this. And yeah, I, I think I have come to disagree with that.

00:29:01:08 - 00:29:48:09
Suzie
It can be very dangerous line. I think, you know, because ultimately what you're doing is that you're conflating the person and the problematic morality with what they produce. Which might have actually nothing much to do with them, in a way. I mean, they just what happened to the death of the author for all? And by the nonexistence, you know, I, I like to think we can make these separations because if we're constantly holding the person to account, if they're an artist, like, we don't necessarily demand that art has to be always moral, because sometimes the problematic morality of art is what makes it good.

00:29:48:12 - 00:30:04:20
Suzie
Because if we constantly just go for a pure morality, it can be very, very sort of fascist, actually. Nice clean alignments and quite purist. But anyway, moving on a different we.

00:30:04:23 - 00:30:34:23
Donna
But I just want to make this point that, you know, you go back in time to be a gay or lesbian person meant that people weren't going to listen to this, to go read your books. So the morality of the time was canceling those people. Do we want the morality of our time to cancel anybody? And yeah, I think, you know, dealing with what they may have done is different to canceling what they produce.

00:30:34:23 - 00:30:41:08
Donna
As you said, probably, shifting tangents just very well.

00:30:41:08 - 00:31:06:15
Jaz
I don't I don't think so. I think we can shift out of a deep dive on that, but I think it links probably to some of what each of you are interested in talking about, which is the different standards that might be put on women. So did her in that book talks about mostly about men. And the chapter that she has on women is as compared to men who, who are considered genius, like Hemingway or, Picasso can get away with bullshit behavior.

00:31:06:15 - 00:31:24:24
Jaz
And just because of their genius, that makes them a monster. What makes women monsters? It's when they don't take care of their kids, you know? And I think there's a little bit in this series that links to that as well. What makes Bel bad, you know. Is she there? She a good partner? Is she there for her son?

00:31:24:26 - 00:31:37:26
Jaz
But also is the up in the advice she she's giving is a completely undermined by the fact that she herself didn't have cancer. Is there not any good wellness advice in what she was putting forward?

00:31:37:29 - 00:32:09:00
Donna
I thought that to like her. If you had enjoyed her recipes, then her recipes are possibly still okay. The issue about publishing the book was that, you know, the recipes are still yummy and easy to prepare and healthy. So did and and I wondered that about her myself. Why did she need to have cancer in order to produce these recipes that, put that book?

00:32:09:02 - 00:32:10:21
Jaz

00:32:10:24 - 00:32:40:24
Suzie
I think in a way, when we talked about marketing and the parasocial, it's about finding an audience. So she needed to actually have an audience and to gain that audience momentum. And sadly, she did. She did pry open a very vulnerable audience, you know, people who had cancer, on serious health matters, which is medically, seriously problematic and ethically obviously as well.

00:32:40:26 - 00:33:09:10
Suzie
But she knew that was her audience. And then she had admirers that came with that on top of it. Well, she she triumphed over canned cancer. She killed herself. She became her own doctor. So it's the backstory. Like we love backstories because backstories make something more genuine, even though, you know, it's it's providing she provided a false origin story and we and we we embrace origin stories all the time.

00:33:09:15 - 00:33:40:22
Suzie
Like there's so many films about the origins of this, the origins of this, which she's actually had a hard life, blah, blah, blah. Everyone identifies with her and she she becomes a hero. So she she was very, very clever. I mean, she's very, adept. And in a different world, in a, in a different sort of background, she might have been a successful CEO of, of a company without, without having that, that, lie of of of the backstory.

00:33:40:24 - 00:34:08:24
Donna
Absolutely. If her mental health had been stable and she had had the support that she needed from family and community and perhaps from school, she would have been an entrepreneur. She needed some sort of direction to say, well, actually, you take the lying bit out, let's just create the the Empire. Let's build this empire like you're good at this.

00:34:08:26 - 00:34:41:29
Donna
This is fantastic. But she felt as though she needed to have the illness in order to get any support at all, which does very much come from her background. And I think it is perhaps my sociological and feminist perspective that got really annoyed by the outrage about her, her deceit of people, and that they were only looking at a wrongdoing and they weren't looking at that background.

00:34:42:01 - 00:35:04:20
Donna
This is this was somebody who grew up with no family support, and I wonder what the school was thinking at different times during that story. Nobody seemed to intervene. It didn't seem to be community support. So she had no backing. Now, people who have no community and no family, we know statistically will not do well in the world.

00:35:04:23 - 00:35:10:22
Donna
The fact that she got as far as she did was really commendable.

00:35:10:24 - 00:35:35:15
Suzie
Yeah, but she she also was in a passion of realizing that she because of the lack of background support, she realized early in her, I hate to say this, I'm talking to her as a as if she's a real well, she is a real person, but I don't know her personally. But but from the evidence, she she had a pattern of saying, you know, I've got this illness, I've got this, I'm having an operation and blah, blah, blah.

00:35:35:16 - 00:35:57:18
Suzie
So she knew that getting sympathy from others was a way of getting attention and a way of getting a community and a way of getting support, because I suppose she knew she she needed some kind of platform, in which to operate, as anyone does in a way, but maybe not through those some means.

00:35:57:20 - 00:36:29:02
Donna
Well, given within the world where social influencing is now becoming a career prospect for young people. I actually know a young person who wants to be. I know two young people want to be influencers when they grow up young males. And given we live in that world where that's an option, where being famous is something that you can manufacture, then it's unsurprising that that's something that she aspired to.

00:36:29:04 - 00:36:29:18
Erica

00:36:29:22 - 00:36:39:28
Suzie
Yeah I'll tell you. Right. I mean in a way she is, she is a product of her time. And I suppose it's important to recognize that.

00:36:40:00 - 00:36:58:10
Erica
Yeah. And that in that time in particular because Instagram was only just taking off and her timing was actually really good. In terms of having less noise, there was a lot less to compete with at that time. That's true. Yeah. Well, I.

00:36:58:10 - 00:37:21:00
Jaz
I think I just sort of mentioned like my reading of it wasn't that she was trying to be famous from the start, but that she wasn't coping and she was having panic attacks and realized physical illness, physical pain and disability that you can see gets more attention than psychological emotional pain. And then it's like a maladaptive coping that's worked.

00:37:21:00 - 00:37:31:06
Jaz
That's how I get attention. Oh, and now also I can get famous doing this. And of growing up not getting attention. Yes, please. You know, yummy.

00:37:31:08 - 00:38:00:02
Erica
Yeah. Totally agree. So she, she clearly had a need for connection like we all do. And she didn't have that. And, and I think there was a lot of positive reinforcement happening because when she was talking about cancer and relating to people, she was getting the connection that she was craving, and that she needed. Yeah. So I think that positive reinforcement was, yeah, perpetuating the behavior.

00:38:00:05 - 00:38:11:12
Erica
There wasn't much pushback from anybody because she didn't have strong connections to, I guess, hold her accountable in some ways.

00:38:11:14 - 00:38:26:25
Jaz
I wonder if it could be a good point to shift into, but firstly, loving it live in discussion. I wonder if we might shift into the health decision stuff. Erica, do you want to guide us on a bit of a journey of the things that came through strongly for you? It's,

00:38:26:27 - 00:38:58:23
Erica
I think there were two main areas that, struck me, and, and one was related to taking advantage, I guess as an influencer, taking advantage of, vulnerable people, with cancer in particular, and being able to have a strong influence on those health decisions. What we know about that is that, we've got push and pull factors when it comes to health decision making.

00:38:58:23 - 00:39:33:14
Erica
So, people get pulled towards a certain type of, medicine. So in this case, it was in the case of Mila, it was an alternative medicine. And she was pulled towards that because it was perceived as being, you know, healthy, natural. You know, it was going to give her an option that she didn't have, and that was a little bit of a push factor as well, because she wasn't getting what she wanted from, mainstream health care.

00:39:33:17 - 00:40:06:23
Erica
So, the other pushback to that came across in that the way they portrayed her health interaction, her health care interactions, was one of dismissing her and not really listening to her needs. And this is a very common experience for women, women's health care, concerns aren't really listened to. And in the context of the story, that was quite a significant decision that she had to make to amputate an arm.

00:40:06:25 - 00:40:10:06
Erica
So very emotional, very personal.

00:40:10:08 - 00:40:34:10
Suzie
I just want to jump in there quickly. Erica. Erica. Because the way it was represented in the series, the way Mila was represented in the series, she wasn't just a woman. She was a beautiful young woman. So esthetics were really important in her representation. And the implication was she doesn't want to lose an arm because that would be esthetically not very attractive.

00:40:34:12 - 00:40:59:21
Suzie
She didn't want to lose an arm for, but we got the sense that she wanted to sustain this beauty and not this, you know, losing an arm would sort of be a stain on that. So I think in a way, audiences were perhaps encouraged to judge her bitch. Like, heard her health decisions wasn't necessarily all about health, it was about esthetics too.

00:40:59:24 - 00:41:00:06
Erica

00:41:00:13 - 00:41:27:21
Suzie
Because she wanted to retain the integrity of her. And when she was doing her postings, her postings online were all about beauty. It wasn't just about unhealthy, unhealthy and beautiful. And that's the allure. That's how she fostered. Like you kind of get a bigger audience if you a sick beauty, then if you just seek so that that feeds into that gender issue.

00:41:27:23 - 00:41:33:08
Donna
You think how rigid we were encouraged. I think we were incited.

00:41:33:15 - 00:41:34:28
Suzie
Okay. Or,

00:41:35:00 - 00:42:09:11
Donna
For disliking them. Hating them. Yeah. The the producers of the show were a bit amoral around the way they represented the these young women. I'm pretty sure that they haven't done that objectively. I felt like I yeah. Yeah. Absolute manipulation. I definitely felt manipulated. And when I listened to other people talking about the show, they were incensed.

00:42:09:14 - 00:42:14:18
Donna
They were really couldn't bear it. She was so hideous. You know.

00:42:14:25 - 00:42:17:25
Suzie
You're so you're, you're, you're talking about Bell or Mila.

00:42:17:27 - 00:42:21:10
Donna
Well I think people were more sympathetic to Mila.

00:42:21:12 - 00:42:22:19
Suzie
Yeah. Yeah.

00:42:22:21 - 00:42:46:09
Donna
Think we were encouraged to judge her, as you said, or gaslighted into judgment. It almost reminded me of witch burnings, you know, look at her. Look what she's doing now. Oh, she's most definitely a witch. You know, it seemed like that to me. And, I felt a bit disgusted by it, so I was watching it. Yeah. Look, I could say she was an influencer.

00:42:46:09 - 00:43:01:22
Donna
She said she had cancer. She wrote a she wrote recipes. She didn't have cancer. You know, I was I was kind of less upset about that than I was about the way that the television show was made.

00:43:01:24 - 00:43:25:11
Suzie
Yeah. But you've also got to take into account that she befriended, she also befriended cancer sufferers and that that was represented where these young boy was dying. And she promised all these things like, oh, I'll pay for your surgery. Oh, you know, and and her alignment with these people was clearly manipulative, which she clearly did. And these people were waiting for her help.

00:43:25:13 - 00:43:47:20
Suzie
And of course, she didn't come through. She promised to give all these money to charities looking like this extraordinary, generous person. And of course, that never happened to either. So I think people do tend to judge when they feel that vulnerable people are preyed upon. I think you're you're right. I can understand that. I, I can say that.

00:43:47:20 - 00:44:11:05
Suzie
But I do agree there was an extra dimension of judgment where, particularly with Mila, I felt too, who actually did have cancer, where where she was very beautiful. And you were encouraged to dismiss her as vain, you know, as someone who didn't go through with the amputation. Silly girl. She died.

00:44:11:08 - 00:44:17:24
Donna
Yeah. The doctors told us that. So yeah, they were one dimensional characters.

00:44:17:26 - 00:44:19:17
Suzie
Yeah. They were being.

00:44:19:17 - 00:44:39:00
Donna
Portrayed we, we think as witches. We were supposed to want to persecute them and watch them suffer. I agree that she did do the wrong thing, particularly around that boy who is. She was supposed to give money and that child was dying.

00:44:39:02 - 00:44:59:05
Suzie
Yeah. And and and also Mila's mother had cancer. And of course, she had to follow through with, the supposed alternative treatment that, you know, and, of course, she she died. So there's that sense that it goes beyond you, goes beyond. You could say Bell was a narcissist. It goes beyond the narcissist and affects all these other people.

00:44:59:05 - 00:45:24:17
Suzie
And that's when it's obviously problematic. But I mean, I also like I think it's also helpful to acknowledge that the series is also part of a social media machine. It it knows it's got an audience like a social media avatar. It knows it's got an audience who wants to vicariously view a young woman who's acted really, really badly.

00:45:24:20 - 00:45:52:04
Suzie
And so all of these trolls and, you know, all these online, you know, frenzy is kind of fostered. It it's it is fostered by this Netflix series. It isn't trying to critique or to analyze, you know, the social media phenomenon itself, you know, which is a monster in and of itself, which enables all of this miscommunication and all of this injustice.

00:45:52:07 - 00:46:19:08
Suzie
But, but no, and also you, you you think of big companies like Apple who were aligned itself with Bell, you know, so so they were wanting to cash in on it. And of course, they separated themselves from her when they found out that it was a fiction. Her cancer was a fiction. But we, you know, but there wasn't a critique of how these companies, you know, are also monstrous in their own ways.

00:46:19:08 - 00:46:37:28
Suzie
And and they prey upon people and parasites. Yeah. That's what, 60 minutes. So it's all. Yes, that's true. And and it's, it's usually the individuals. Let's get the individual. It's easier to get the individual than to get the big companies. And that's that's what usually happens.

00:46:38:00 - 00:46:41:17
Donna
And social media makes it possible doesn't it.

00:46:41:20 - 00:46:43:21
Suzie
It does seem like most of all.

00:46:43:21 - 00:47:15:25
Donna
For these influencers to destroy people's lives. And we know that there are the we know the Andrew Tight absolutely used the social media to to harness that. And what is the moral responsibility of the platforms like. Yeah, they take no responsibility at all for making sure that anybody who speaks through them is doing so authentically. They don't censor or moderate what anybody's saying.

00:47:15:28 - 00:47:35:04
Donna
They're happy if somebody is clicking on something that will make them money, and people don't even realize that they are the product, that if they're clicking, then they're making money for those social media companies. I'm annoyed by that as well.

00:47:35:04 - 00:47:36:08
Suzie
Yeah.

00:47:36:11 - 00:47:50:22
Donna
Yeah, I don't know. Why do I feel as though I'm almost minimizing what Bill did? But yeah, I feel like there's there's more to the story than just Bill Gibson was bad. Bill Gibson did a bad thing.

00:47:50:24 - 00:48:15:25
Suzie
It's so easy to just hate her. That's the easiest thing to do. And I think social media fosters it can foster a parasocial love relationship and it can foster a hate relationship like it really. Again, it feeds off emotions all the time. It's not interested necessarily in truth, if it gets in the way of, of a more compelling story.

00:48:15:27 - 00:48:24:03
Donna
It also manufactures those emotions that it can then feed off. Yeah, that's morally poor as well, isn't it?

00:48:24:03 - 00:48:43:26
Suzie
Just joking. Yeah, but it doesn't seem as sexy to be going after a corporation than an individual. Like we we do live in a, like in a world where it is that it is the cult of personality. It's the cult of individuals. So we can easily point the fingers two, which is, you know, part of the problem.

00:48:43:26 - 00:48:49:12
Suzie
And it's it's also part of the reason Bill was so successful because she, she fed into that.

00:48:49:14 - 00:49:36:19
Jaz
Eye on first watching. Really enjoyed the series. I will openly say that. And I think it's at the individual level. I never hated mill, Miller or Bell. I felt a lot of empathy for them, especially from a mental health perspective. And, having managed a chronic illness in the past, feeling like totally overwhelmed in going or repeating a story or being told something that, in a medical context where I didn't feel like my perspectives were being heard, but I found myself being really pissed off with a lot of the men in the series imposing their perspective, or what their needs were.

00:49:36:19 - 00:49:47:07
Jaz
And I was really pissed off at the publishing the publishing house. It's a book because the, you know, the way that story was told was like, oh, well, they didn't really know that this was all deceptive.

00:49:47:07 - 00:49:48:18
Suzie
And yeah.

00:49:48:20 - 00:50:11:02
Jaz
And then right at the end of the series, of course, they'd done media prep with Bell and and not only realized probably was the was she, not someone who had, a terminal illness, but also she probably mentally wasn't very well and it had really negative childhood experiences. This is like at multiple points, it's like I will point to we go, hey, are you okay?

00:50:11:08 - 00:50:30:00
Jaz
Do you need some supports? Like but it was always like a bit of a cash cow situation. Yeah. So it's interesting because I when I reached out to folks and to other people, I'd hope to have a publishing person to be the the fifth person join us today. And people were saying to me, I can't even watch that show.

00:50:30:06 - 00:50:40:16
Jaz
It upsets me so much because I was a follower of Bell or what trash. I turned it off in the first episode, and maybe folks in this room had said that to me as well. I can't exactly.

00:50:40:19 - 00:51:06:21
Suzie
I love it. Yeah, I did send it off. I didn't think it was very well made. I found it bit confusing because it was shifting time periods between 2009 and 2015 or something, and it was just to me, wasn't very clear cut. And I kind of felt that it felt rushed for some reason. I just I just didn't think it really addressed her, background all that.

00:51:06:21 - 00:51:29:21
Suzie
Well, it kind of revealed that, sure, she came from a dysfunctional family, but so do a lot of people. And, yeah, I just, I wasn't I didn't find it compelling viewing, put it that way. And that's the thing that draws me in. But when I heard features, I thought, oh, I better bloody watch it. Watch all of it.

00:51:29:23 - 00:51:58:19
Erica
I, I yeah, I was just because I was, I was like, you just actually enjoyed it. First watch I was very. I didn't love a lot of what was done in the show, but as, as far as good TV goes, I actually. Yeah, I thought they did a good job. But what I did find disturbing was at the end when they sort of talked about what happened to Bill, they I think they said, just Google it.

00:51:58:21 - 00:52:10:12
Erica
And I was went I just thought, wow, like to leave it up in the air like that. And, you know, it was fictional, but based in truth.

00:52:10:14 - 00:52:11:22
Jaz
They kept saying that, didn't they?

00:52:11:22 - 00:52:26:28
Erica
Yeah, yeah. Fictional. And then saying, just Google it. I just thought, you know, how do people make decisions about what they're going to read online when they Google it? I thought that was really unfair. To Bill.

00:52:27:01 - 00:52:54:08
Donna
And what about the attack on the wellness industry? I think that a lot of people rely on the wellness industry because a naturopathy or, an acupuncturist will give you more time is more interested in you as a holistic person will give you many different treatments, including being able to refer you to psychologists or whatever. If you need that.

00:52:54:11 - 00:53:37:23
Donna
And yet this show really attacked the wellness industry. So will the wellness industry or any kind of preventative health or health care that you might seek outside of a specialist was wrong. And and I thought that that was quite dangerous. And a lot of people, particularly in inequality studies, when we're looking at social class, one of the things that you do notice is that people from disadvantaged classes are unable to access preventative health, and, and unable to access that wellness industry because it can be very expensive.

00:53:37:25 - 00:54:07:22
Donna
And the outcome of that is poor morbidity. And people are sicker. They sicker because they can't access it. And they and they die younger because they can't access it. So it's not just about being able to seek Medicare. And if you have a life threatening illness, everybody gets the same kind of care. But it's this preventative care and it's access to the wellness industry that's really helpful for the middle and upper classes.

00:54:07:22 - 00:54:15:26
Donna
So, I don't think slamming the wellness industry was a good idea either. And maybe you've got something to say about that.

00:54:15:28 - 00:54:42:05
Erica
I've got so much to say about. I don't even know where to start. Part of the problem is that it's, I guess I guess it's two things going on in the wellness industry. There's there's wellness influencers who have no medical training or, you know, no, health care training at all. And then there are a health series, health professionals like niche pets, herbalists, who are still not part of our mainstream health care system.

00:54:42:07 - 00:55:08:27
Erica
And this is kind of the crux of the problem, is that we've been fighting for regulation of these, health professions for a long time now, and it still hasn't happened. They're still just sitting outside. And because of that lack of integration of care, it as you've as you've already highlighted it, it people don't have as many options for, for their health care.

00:55:08:29 - 00:55:42:07
Erica
So if they do say, if they do, if they are stuck in the medical system and this is in particular happens to women, they're not being heard by, by, you know, mainstream health care, they're not being listened to. They're being dismissed or, or the treatment isn't working for them. If they don't have there's an equity issue where if they don't have the funds to go and, pay privately to see a natural path or other, complementary health practitioner, then, yeah, they're missing out on that treatment.

00:55:42:07 - 00:56:10:14
Erica
And that's actually something that is driving people online to do their own research and, you know, engage in self-care. But being able to interpret the information out there is extremely difficult. So, yeah, people may not always be making the best decisions. About those treatments. So we have a big equity issue here, in terms of access to that kind of health care.

00:56:10:16 - 00:56:29:18
Erica
And we do have evidence for a lot of treatments, but there also isn't enough funding available to increase the evidence base. So, you know, there's there's a lot going on. It's quite a complex area. But yeah, there's definitely an equity issue there.

00:56:29:21 - 00:56:55:04
Jaz
And then for folks who don't know, who don't know that evidence and don't have that kind of context of how the system works, it's like, well, almost like all in, all out, what can I drink? Apple cider vinegar. And it will kill me. Like is that is that herbalism? Oh, like, what is the zodiac sign? Like, you know, this all lumping pseudoscience in with your on mainstream science.

00:56:55:04 - 00:56:56:21
Jaz
And that's a real risk.

00:56:56:24 - 00:57:26:19
Erica
Yeah. And that's one of the reasons why we stopped using the word alternative. Because what we know is that most people use, herbal medicines, anything outside of mainstream health care complementary to the mainstream health care. So they don't use it as an alternative. There are some people that do, but they're a very small minority. So we refer to it as complementary medicine, rather than alternative medicine.

00:57:26:21 - 00:57:55:24
Erica
But unfortunately, the story that they tell in, apple cider vinegar is that Miller just dismisses mainstream health care completely and goes down the alternative route, that separation, like not having a health care team, not having, you know, you know, specialists speaking to, other health care practitioners becomes really problematic.

00:57:55:26 - 00:58:18:24
Jaz
There is that third character, and I forget their name. But she basically she meets Bell at the cafe. And at this point I'm going to pause and say that cafe where they film is called Poke the Bear. It's in Norfolk. It it's one of my locals and favorites. It's a very nice place to go. Very inclusive place run by Ryan.

00:58:18:26 - 00:58:52:03
Jaz
Love your screen. So that was a bit fun for me. I think when I was watching it, seeing Melbourne places that I knew. But there's that character where for her it becomes like a spiritual journey. And there's that critique, I guess, of Western folks going to various countries paying for a spiritual experience and have that is like a complete alternative as well, and not something that could be, you know, at what point can we work in people's spiritual beliefs and spiritual experiences into mainstream medicine experiences as well?

00:58:52:05 - 00:59:18:21
Erica
Yeah, I think part of the problem is that we've become really disconnected from that spiritual aspect of, of health care. And like, we know when we look at traditional medicines and have, indigenous cultures use medicine, it's not they don't separate that spiritual aspect of health. It's part of how they treat the whole person. And we definitely, I think, need to address that in my stream.

00:59:18:21 - 00:59:20:21
Erica
Health care, that disconnect.

00:59:20:24 - 00:59:55:07
Suzie
I did actually watch an interesting and interesting documentary about her that, revealed that after she was exposed, as a fraud, she, she sort of adopted and adopted a different community. And it was about she became Muslim and she was a part of, an Ethiopian community trying to raise money for, hungry children. And, she was exposed as a fraud.

00:59:55:07 - 01:00:18:11
Suzie
But the thing is, she what was interesting is that she was she needed to find another community, to have a sense of belonging. And to me, that's quite sad. You know, I think you 1st May always wonder what is the motivating factor in all of this. And sure, I might have mentioned fame or whatever, but I think Jessie.

01:00:18:11 - 01:00:59:18
Suzie
Right. I think I think she wanted to belong somewhere. I think she wanted to have connections and, and she would go to any, any lengths. So. Yes. I, I, I sort of think compassion is something that, that is kind of rare nowadays, especially when online communications tend to be so kind of cruel and judgmental. So, yes, I mean, sure, she, she did a really terrible thing, but I think in, at the heart of it, she's she's probably motivated by that, that need to, to be seen and that need to belong.

01:00:59:18 - 01:01:30:26
Suzie
And we all need that. You know, clearly she just hasn't gone about it the right way. It just put it mildly. But, yeah, that's I mean, I was thinking of that it is always easy to judge these sorts of characters and, and, and I think that certain narratives kind of often encourage our judgment. But I'm pleased that you didn't feel that way just when you watched the series that, you felt empathy for her.

01:01:30:26 - 01:01:32:09
Suzie
So.

01:01:32:11 - 01:01:42:21
Jaz
But I did. I wouldn't say that. I was as cognizant of the things that you're raising, but I was aware that that trying to portray her in a certain way.

01:01:42:23 - 01:01:43:00
Suzie
Yeah.

01:01:43:00 - 01:02:06:08
Jaz
It just it just didn't land as well. I, I did feel that empathy for her and all that stuff. You you've mentioned there, Suzie, all really great points in a context where production, the number of productions and, of bias leaks or based on true stories like the the number of greenlit projects that going through the roof like.

01:02:06:10 - 01:02:33:05
Jaz
Yeah, I just kind of think about, I do wonder about the ethics and the morality of that. The, the longer term impacts on her. And I will come out and say that I had never even heard the story till the series. Oh yeah, I did my PhD on TV news, and I am infamous for my social network, for being the person who doesn't know anything about current affairs because I do not pay any attention.

01:02:33:09 - 01:02:38:13
Jaz
Haha. So yeah, it actually erased the story for me for the first time.

01:02:38:15 - 01:03:01:12
Suzie
Yeah, her her appearance on 60 minutes. They did show they did dramatize that in the series and then the documentary, they did show that and it obviously was was a train wreck. She, she thought she could, somehow redeem herself, but, you know. Yes. So so she has. Yeah, she's she's sort of quite well known in the media.

01:03:01:12 - 01:03:08:12
Suzie
I mean, even a Google search. Well, she, she's kind of known as a, as a scammer, as a fraudster.

01:03:08:12 - 01:03:36:07
Jaz
So it was the first thing that I watched when I finished the last episode, I found the YouTube clips from that interview on 60 minutes and watched those. And they're just they've just relaunched, talking about your gen. And one of the questions for the recent generation was about Mel Gibson. Like, as is, I'm under a rock. This is a really important story that's impacted a little lives.

01:03:36:09 - 01:03:58:21
Suzie
Yeah. And and I think the court directed her to pay all these fines, which she hasn't paid. She can't pay them that she can't afford them. That and particularly, sending money to the charity, to the charities that she promised, which she never has. So, so yeah, she's got all these outstanding fines. Yeah.

01:03:58:23 - 01:04:26:10
Erica
The thing that really bugged me about the way they portrayed her as well was they really focused on her being, you know, hysterical. So they were sort of buying into this, you know, perpetuating this trope that you know, women villains, you know, a hysterical or and, and they really hand that up and that that's the one thing I really disliked.

01:04:26:13 - 01:04:56:05
Erica
And I thought that scene where she threw herself on the floor and that I thought that made me feel so uncomfortable because I really thought they only did that for dramatic effect. And, so that you would dislike it even more. So they were just piling it on, you know? And so I think that's the one thing, like, even though I enjoyed the show, just purely as TV, like, you know, good watch.

01:04:56:07 - 01:04:59:27
Erica
There were things like that that really grated.

01:04:59:29 - 01:05:34:09
Jaz
Again, worried for her safety, like, because if that did happen and people like, what does it mean to to care for other humans in contemporary Australian society when that's happening? But there's no follow up. And, and I go, so most of my research is around, gendered violence and intimate partner violence. And you certainly saw, Belle's manipulation of her partner and using the relationship with the son, like, as a, as a basically comply or you'll lose access.

01:05:34:11 - 01:05:49:24
Jaz
And I think we don't see we don't often see that side of things. A the part when I felt most unsafe and gross in the whole series was when she went to see that doctor for her son. Do you remember this guy? Just in a random building? Yeah.

01:05:49:25 - 01:05:52:02
Suzie
You look really looked like a pedophile.

01:05:52:04 - 01:06:13:20
Jaz
Yeah. And and since she's, she's clearly not well herself at the time, the boy goes in by himself first and then she does. And you see genuinely how vulnerable she is. And and that's she's not posting about the treatment she's getting from that guy. So she has some health concerns, even if it is, you know, psychological in roots.

01:06:13:23 - 01:06:41:24
Jaz
You don't put yourself in that kind of situation and pay that amount of money behind closed doors for for what that looks like. And again, it's like the normal character you know, that the woman who's working with her goes along to that. And just like, yeah, at what point is it okay to intervene? I guess, like, I know we're not going to have an answer for that, but it made me feel uncomfortable how people would have people seeing in that series how unwell she was in risky situations.

01:06:41:24 - 01:06:46:25
Jaz
She was in. And not really advocating or supporting.

01:06:46:27 - 01:07:19:29
Donna
They did portray the story as though everybody around her was a victim who could do nothing with her, and yet nobody spoke to her openly about it. Nobody set it down. She needed an intervention, not somebody who eventually, after months and months and months and months or years or whatever it was, says you're not sick. And it's hardly explored between the couple.

01:07:19:29 - 01:07:28:29
Donna
It's and some people suspecting that she's not sick, it needed more than that. Something more real.

01:07:28:29 - 01:08:06:15
Suzie
And yeah I mean I suppose it's difficult though because with this series has it represented itself as have they introduced scenes that didn't exist in her life. Are they saying this is a loose portrayal of what happened, or are we trying to represent precisely what happened. So it's it's kind of difficult to know. I mean, I suppose the thing is, we can only see the dramatization and think that they probably did make decisions that may not have completely cohered with everything that that she did, because they have to concentrated within a certain amount of time.

01:08:06:17 - 01:08:19:02
Suzie
So so there's always that gap. Don't know between maybe there was more people intervening in the real situation, but the dramatization didn't pick it up like we don't really know.

01:08:19:04 - 01:08:27:17
Donna
Because the dramatization was so manipulative and they were and that they did want to incite hatred of her.

01:08:27:20 - 01:08:47:03
Suzie
I was, I was pretty furious with her, I have to say. I just was feeling frustrated because I know a lot of people who are, who have cancer, who is struggling and who have died of cancer. And so I think it may maybe if it was anything other than that dealing with cancer, I might have felt a little bit less angry.

01:08:47:06 - 01:09:13:27
Suzie
But because it dealt with such a sensitive, such a serious illness, and when it is actually such a problem, so many, you know, so many people get cancer. And now people who were younger that, that it is it is very, very serious. And, I mean, I would just, you know, you would just hope that something good might come out of this, you know, something there could be some awareness, like some.

01:09:13:27 - 01:09:29:02
Suzie
See, I see I could get Bill under his or her wing and just say, well, let's let's spread some awareness and some cancer intelligence here and actually help people and give them good information online.

01:09:29:04 - 01:09:30:10
Erica

01:09:30:13 - 01:10:04:08
Donna
I don't think I felt personal like it didn't feel personal to me in any way because I was aware from the moment I started watching that I was being manipulated and that this portrayal was possibly untrue. So I'm not sure which parts are true and which aren't. So I'm not convinced by any of the wrongdoing that they've told us about, because I don't know what proportion to that that wrongdoing occurred.

01:10:04:08 - 01:10:28:02
Donna
And I know that there was wrongdoing from the true story, but I haven't followed the court case. I'm not prepared to trust the people who produced the show. So I don't know. I don't know if that that doctor that Jaz talked about, I was pretty shocked by that. I thought, he's a predator who's milking her for money. He's doing nothing for that incredible amount of money.

01:10:28:05 - 01:10:37:26
Donna
And I don't know if he's real. I don't know if he existed. I don't know if any of the relationships that I was shown are real.

01:10:37:29 - 01:10:39:04
Jaz

01:10:39:06 - 01:11:14:17
Donna
I don't know what to what extent. I think that there was deception. That's clear from the the outcomes of the court case. However, I also think outcomes of court cases can be wrong, particularly if a jury or or a magistrate is feeling emotional about the crime, for instance, and this is highly irrelevant. But it reminds me the pedestrian car accident in Hornsby the other day.

01:11:14:17 - 01:11:17:26
Donna
Jaz might know about this. Or you do know about it.

01:11:17:26 - 01:11:20:16
Jaz
No, I don't, but on know.

01:11:20:18 - 01:11:45:05
Donna
Somebody stopped to let some pedestrians cross somebody else's hit that car in the back and people are talking about it and they're saying, well, that person is going to be in a lot of trouble. He's killed two people, so he's going to be in a lot of trouble. But then it was a 19 year old from a very posh suburb in Sydney driving a BMW.

01:11:45:08 - 01:12:21:28
Donna
And immediately people started to say, oh, he'll get off right, he's going to get off. His father's probably a magistrate. Where is, detention centers for youth are absolutely packed full of children from disadvantaged backgrounds. Right. So juries, magistrates, etc. are socially influenced. So I don't necessarily trust the outcomes of the court case either. Isn't that bad? I am so cynical about the social world study.

01:12:21:28 - 01:12:36:13
Suzie
A lot of what happened though, is also documented by journalists who work for good newspapers. So I, I tend to, I tend to trust investigative journalism.

01:12:36:15 - 01:12:37:11
Donna
Yeah.

01:12:37:13 - 01:12:42:02
Suzie
So that information about Bell is also filtered through that portal which.

01:12:42:02 - 01:12:51:21
Donna
So if you could distill it all, if you could distill it all through the different places that you trust and say, well what crimes did she commit. And then.

01:12:51:23 - 01:13:04:15
Suzie
Well it's, it's fraud. I mean, yeah, pretending something that you're not and yet she, she may profit out of it and you know, it's just that's what it is.

01:13:04:18 - 01:13:08:19
Donna
And she told people she was raising money and didn't raise it.

01:13:08:20 - 01:13:21:12
Suzie
She kept saying, oh she, she did raise money, but she promised to send all the, all the money to charities, which never happened. But that was advertised online.

01:13:21:14 - 01:13:39:29
Jaz
I was just going to mention folks this could be a good place to mention that the series is I'm, I'm just going to say loosely based, but we don't know for sure. On the 2017 book The Woman Who Fooled the World by journalists Beau Donnelly and Nick Toscano. Okay, so folks who are interested might want to have a read of that.

01:13:39:29 - 01:14:03:08
Jaz
And and yeah, I think like somebody mentioned, if you Google it, you're going to find lots of commentary on this series and, and opinion pieces on Bell more broadly. And I made a real effort to not read that stuff, to not influence what my take was and then have that what are the things that interested me, and then pick the brains of your folks in this conversation?

01:14:03:10 - 01:14:14:23
Jaz
I feel like we've covered a lot of ground. I want to make sure, though, that we don't finish up with that without somebody, like with anybody thinking, I just want to make this point before we finish up. Was there anything else that we should loop out?

01:14:14:25 - 01:14:55:16
Erica
I did just want to come back to something, and that was just, I guess, ethically, how do we deal with these kind of shows where we've got somebody, who's a real person who's sure they've committed a crime. But all of this embellishment around her story and not being able to know what's true, what's fiction, you know, is it okay, you know, ethically to produce these shows about people while they're still alive, you know, is that okay?

01:14:55:16 - 01:15:06:14
Erica
Like, how does that sit with us? Kind of not comfortable with it. Like. Yeah, it's just sitting uncomfortably with me,

01:15:06:17 - 01:15:34:29
Jaz
Knowing what we know about human memory, if they can, they can say as much as they want of this. This is only partly true, folks. So, you know, like Suzie was saying early on, this folks will watch this and take parts of it to be true that aren't, and vice versa. Yeah, I think it's pretty problematic. I think the only thing I read was Bell received no payment, and that was because the people creating the show didn't want to look like they're supporting or promoting her.

01:15:35:02 - 01:15:51:22
Jaz
It's like, well, you can't have it both ways, folks. You can't make money off doing a show on someone but then not reimburse them. Or like, I don't know, I don't have a well thought out opinion on that, but I guess, I don't know what the answer is, but I also feel really uncomfortable about it. Erica.

01:15:51:24 - 01:16:07:09
Erica
Yeah. And I think it's also, you know, what's the impact on her now? You know what what impact did that have on her? That betrayal. Yeah. Especially then. You know what we know she seemed to be quite mentally, Well.

01:16:07:11 - 01:16:34:11
Jaz
Representations of yourself, even when you step into them, voluntarily, like we have with recording this, every time I record an episode, I feel anxious straight away afterwards. Know. And I recorded something the other day. I was like, what did I even say? How am I going to come across? This is like the 30th episode of psychotic and and having representations of yourself in the public, and not knowing how people will perceive you is pretty uncomfortable.

01:16:34:11 - 01:16:51:12
Jaz
And then imagine that's you. You don't get to tell your part of the story, but you get represented for like basically what we've discussed is all the all the warts, right? Like all the most awful things and the worst decisions that she ever made, it's pretty awful.

01:16:51:15 - 01:17:21:14
Suzie
It's it's really tough. I mean, I think, you know, how we sort of think certain people are fair game, you know, how they have this thing in the media where, say, if you're a royal, you know, it's fair game, like to expect yourself to be in public. I'm not saying that Bell is fair game at all, but, what you just said, Erica, is thought provoking because I was just thinking of all the things that we access online, all the documentaries and series and stuff.

01:17:21:16 - 01:17:44:16
Suzie
A lot of that is based on the lives of real people. So if we put a ban on representing the lives of real people, you sort of think, well, what would be the criteria to not represent that? What would what should stop it? Is is it the ethical dilemma of of of Bell coping in real life and having the stigma?

01:17:44:19 - 01:18:07:13
Suzie
But the thing is, it's already out there, like the genie's out of the bottle. In a way. I'm not saying I agree, but she did put it out there by performing a certain role online and and so she what whatever would happen, the fact that a crime is committed, it is always going to be a public, a public thing.

01:18:07:15 - 01:18:11:22
Suzie
So, I'm just. Yeah, just tricky thoughts. Anyway.

01:18:11:24 - 01:18:16:20
Erica
Yeah. I think the difference for me is like a documentary is one thing.

01:18:16:27 - 01:18:17:07
Suzie
Yeah.

01:18:17:09 - 01:18:41:06
Erica
Where you can fact check that and all the rest of it, but it's more of, the saying it's, you know, kind of based in the truth, but, you know, it's not all real. It's partly fiction and not knowing what the fiction is and portraying her in a particular way, that might not be true. That's the dilemma I have is the way they're portraying her in this particular show.

01:18:41:09 - 01:18:46:03
Erica
And the other one is, I think, monsters, which is about the serial killers. Right.

01:18:46:06 - 01:18:47:02
Suzie
Yeah.

01:18:47:04 - 01:18:49:07
Erica
Not the serial killers. The two boys that.

01:18:49:07 - 01:19:12:17
Suzie
The two brothers. Their parents. Yeah. Yeah. But the you know, because of that series, there's been, a groundswell of people wanting to get them out of prison because they've seen the psychological underpinnings of why they did that crime. So they've actually their cases come to light and people are rethinking, well, should they be let out of prison early because of that?

01:19:12:17 - 01:19:17:01
Suzie
I mean, that's how influential this series is. It's extraordinary.

01:19:17:03 - 01:19:20:09
Donna
Should there be no doubt. I haven't watched it. I saw it advertised.

01:19:20:09 - 01:19:30:16
Suzie
Some of these some celebrities are supporting them to be let out because they said that they were abused as children and that they had a psychological reason for doing what they did and.

01:19:30:18 - 01:19:33:08
Donna
Why it's got them doing it again. No, it will it.

01:19:33:11 - 01:19:54:10
Suzie
No, no. Like they shot their mother and father. Yeah. Everyone thought they did it for their fortune. They were seriously wealthy. But this this series has gone beyond the. They only did it for their fortune and went into the actual relationships, which could also be false. I mean, who knows? They're coming.

01:19:54:11 - 01:19:54:23
Donna
Yeah, that's.

01:19:54:23 - 01:19:56:19
Suzie
Right. I think that's that.

01:19:56:21 - 01:19:58:09
Erica
That's it. That's the thing we don't know.

01:19:58:09 - 01:20:00:04
Suzie
Yeah, yeah.

01:20:00:06 - 01:20:15:00
Jaz
Wouldn't that be a clever I mean there's rules about when these things can be released, but you just don't in terms of court cases and, and appeals and things. But yeah. Yeah it does. It makes you wonder about the agenda of things being put together. Yeah.

01:20:15:03 - 01:20:15:29
Suzie
It's just feels.

01:20:15:29 - 01:20:36:19
Jaz
Like a very nice loop too, roughly where we start it. I think we should loop out there folks. I think we could probably after some kind of bio break of taking a bit of comfort in coming back. We probably could talk for a few more hours, but I just want to thank each of you for joining me on this.

01:20:36:19 - 01:20:54:08
Jaz
This is for me, a little bit experimental to see how this would go and try this as a format. And I've really enjoyed it. I've learned a lot from each of you. And I also just want to thank you for modeling kind discussion on what is tricky topics, because I think that's another issue that we see in the media.

01:20:54:08 - 01:21:07:22
Jaz
And social media more broadly is people not having discussions and hearing sides, of different perspectives. So, Suzie, Erica, Donna, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

01:21:07:24 - 01:21:08:26
Suzie
Thanks, Jaz.

01:21:08:28 - 01:21:10:04
Erica
Yeah. Thank you Jaz.

01:21:10:05 - 01:21:11:18
Donna
Thanks for having us, Jaz.