Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:26):
Hey there and welcome to this episode of Psych Attack. I'm Dr. Jaz MacDonald. Today I am getting the chance to catch up with a friend of mine, Dr. Alexander De Foe. Hey there, Alex.

Dr Alexander De Foe (00:38):
Hey Jaz. Nice to see you.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:39):
Alex is one of those, uh, ex-colleagues, buddies. We get to catch up kind of semi infrequently 'cause we keep ourselves kind of really busy with stuff. But what I do find is I'll post something on social media about something recent that's, um, piqued my interest or I have an opinion on. You've usually checked the same kinds of things out. I think last time around it was like Tron Aries. We both had opinions. ,

Dr Alexander De Foe (01:03):
Yes. Yeah. Round is the soundtrack being perhaps better than the film itself?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (01:07):
, exactly. I think that would be a perfect synopsis of where we landed. You know, I'm playing around Alex with including a little bit more film and TV and kind of popular media stuff in psych attack because, you know, honestly this is a big part of how people experience the world, how we spend our time and find kind of enjoyment outside of work. You know, I've played around with this, with Apple side of Vinegar, did a panel discussion. Panel discussions tend to take a lot of coordinating and I think we released that episode a long time after the show had actually been screened. So this is you and I literally both realizing late last night that we both had watched this film and had opinions and that it relates to psychology. Um, and of course we're talking about back rooms, um, the, the recent release a, a film that we've both seen at cinema recently. So kind of part review part working in like our interests in psychology and, and um, and what are some fascinating things that came outta this film or, or resonated for us. So I think that's our goal for today.

Dr Alexander De Foe (02:12):
Definitely. Um, yeah, an an unusual film and yeah, I'm looking forward to to getting into it with you.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (02:18):
Yeah. Unusual is is right. I felt that as well. For listeners, what we're gonna do is give a bit of a description about, uh, what backrooms is and what it's about. And we're gonna try to do that in a way without any spoilers, but to, I guess we need to be honest in catching, uh, an atmosphere kind of correctly for potential viewers of the film. Talk a little bit about, uh, what it's about, who's in it. Maybe talk a little bit about whether we would recommend this film to other people. Deep dive, a bit on Alex's background because there's, you know, there's a, some nice overlaps here with your expertise and, um, that, that informs your take on this film. No doubt. And just saying upfront as well. Alex and I haven't actually had a discussion about this film yet, so we're kind of working this out together as we go. And then, uh, really not kind of structured after that. Just things that stood out for us within the film. But that will be a spoilers part where if you haven't seen the film and you intend to see the film, you should probably stop listening, check that out and come back. I did promise you we're friends and I, and I would be kind and this is a nice experience, but I'm so tempted to just go, you try to describe the film first without spoilers.

Dr Alexander De Foe (03:37):
Well, I think this, um, you know, this kind of concept of liminal spaces, my understanding is it comes from like a social media trend A few years back I was probably being closer to maybe 10 years ago or so, that this idea of a, a liminal space, um, being captured, which is not neither here nor there, like kind of rooms that, you know, stretch on without clear delineations or objects that seem familiar but are not quite where they're supposed to be or there's something a bit off about them. And I think that's what really interested me about this concept, that it's a bit dreamlike and it has that psychological or cognitive element to it. So, and I'm not quite sure how this, uh, you know, got pitched as a film, but I think, um, you know, you might know a bit more about that, the, the directors and casting around it. But, uh, um, the fact that it was made into like a proper, you know, Hollywood level movie I think is quite interesting in the first place. 'cause it is quite a niche sort of concept of dealing with this idea of liminal spaces or, or back rooms that you might find keeping it spoiler free. I don't, I didn't want to go into much into the story or, or script, but, um, yeah, I dunno if you wanted to say more more about that.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (04:46):
It might also be useful to mention that there is a pretty small cast. A bit of the feature of the film is one of the characters seeking psychological support for, you know, just, um, mental health relationship stuff in their life. And I think that that was quite fascinating for me because I wasn't really sure, I thought I knew how that was gonna play out in the film and then it didn't really play out how I thought. Um, and that's all, that's all I'll say, but around the liminal spaces that that's kind of what brings the characters together. Um, so maybe that's a good time for folks interested in film and tv. Um, maybe we could talk about the cast a little bit. It's interesting 'cause the production is so vast in these liminal spaces, but the number of characters and the, the dialogue between them feels quite like a small play.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (05:37):
Like it's quite intimate. One of the, the actors is, uh, Tel Eder four, so British actor folks who probably mostly know Tel from um, 12 Years A Slave. I really like Tel in The Martian 'cause I like sci-fi films and I like Andy We books . Um, uh, it also has, uh, Renata Reva who is a Norwegian actress, uh, recently nominated for an Oscar for Sentimental Value. The first five minutes of that is the story of the house that this family have lived in for generations. And it's like one of the most beautiful intros to a film that I've watched in a while. I think maybe other than that, it's probably good to mention Lakita Maxwell, who's Indonesian American actress. She plays the daughter in shrinking, also a great psych focused, um, TV series, mark de Plus who's an American actor. Um, probably mostly known for morning Wars, but as someone learning Spanish, I really liked him in the Spanish film festival in language lessons.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (06:43):
And then Finn Bennett, who I didn't recognize in the film, this was the, the guy with the camera when I was looking him up, I realized he's in the 2024 series of True Detective. Maybe that's all we can kind of say without spoilers is like, if you're interested in those folks, if the idea of liminal spaces and this interesting YouTube idea of phenomena being turned into a Hollywood film with like quite a mixed cast in terms of nationalities, like it's not all American actors that you see in everything. That might be all we can say without spoilers. What do you think?

Dr Alexander De Foe (07:16):
Yeah, I reckon, I think if we start unpacking the story it's gonna probably get into spoilers. So yeah,

Dr Jaz MacDonald (07:21):
. Okay. The next thing I wanted to know before people log off if they haven't seen it yet, is would you recommend this film?

Dr Alexander De Foe (07:29):
Yeah, it's an interesting question and I, I don't, I wouldn't consider myself like a film critic by, by any stretch of like recommending or not recommending stuff to watch. I've, especially in that sort of, um, I guess it would kind of fit into the horror genre because um, some of the scenes are quite confronting in that sense, but also not, maybe not traditional horror as well in, in that sense. I found some elements of the movie quite interesting in how it was done that maybe you wouldn't expect that it would actually be like the story or the direction wouldn't go the way that it actually goes. So in that sense, um, I think it is probably interesting to check out. I, I dunno if I would necessarily say that it's, you know, a classic film or something that's, you know, one, one of the top movies I'd recommend to see. But just for that sort of interesting angle that it takes, um, I found it worth watching.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (08:19):
Yeah, I think that's a nice description I think I would recommend for the same reasons that you've described. But I would caveat that by saying it, it's deeply unsettling , did you feel unsettled while you were watching it?

Dr Alexander De Foe (08:35):
Yeah, I thought that was captured quite well of that how you capture that sort of feeling of liminality is, is tricky to do. And I thought particular scenes in, you know, particular times in in the movie did capture that real kind of unsettling feeling. But then also I think as you mentioned, there's like an element of it being psychologically unsettling. I I think there's kind of the cognitive and perceptual aspect that I find interesting of this. You know, where is this person? Like it's, you can't quite get like a compass or a, or a sense of where this location is that's unsettling. But then there were also, I think maybe that element psychologically that's a bit unsettling of this idea of replication or you know, something being without consciousness but still persisting to exist. That also was like another level of being unsettling perhaps.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (09:24):
Yeah, totally. And 'cause you're kind of working out as you go what the characters are capable of as humans as well. And that's just such a, you know, that that's great film, right? When, when there's not good characters, bad characters, they're just humans dealing with tricky situations. Okay. I think we will put a pin in it there. And you've mentioned consciousness, so the pin for listeners means if you don't want spoilers, this is where you should pause and come back and join us and see what your experience is like relative to uh, our opinions and takeaways from the film. Um, but consciousness is a good segue, Alex, because I think not only was I looking for not to create an episode necessarily on this, I only thought of that this morning when I saw your response on LinkedIn. But I was looking for human connection of who has seen this film because, 'cause it was deeply unsettling and I've been thinking about it a lot since watching it. And so when you replied and with the background that you have of having done research in consciousness and you know, being, having the expertise that you have in cognitive science, I thought this is gonna be a cool conversation and so I wanna share it , I wanna share it with other people. Let's do an episode. Could you share with the listeners and remind me, you know, why you got into psychology and what are the, the kind of areas of psychology that you spend your time thinking a lot about?

Dr Alexander De Foe (10:46):
Yeah, definitely. So my main area is in cognitive science. I guess I'd describe myself as a cognitive scientist and um, at the moment I'm of course also working as a lecturer at Monash University in broader, um, psychology areas. But I've always found those questions around consciousness and altered states of conscious experience. Probably what's been most fascinating, um, for me in terms of driving that research with some of like more clinical applications as well, I guess around meditation and mindfulness, but also the more, um, fundamental sort of questions like these issues. I think this is what drove me to, you know, this interest in liminality as well. These questions around concept called the binding problem in, um, the neurosciences around how we actually sustain continuity of a perception of our world as being like a stable sensory and perceptual experience because obviously things are happening at, um, different times in the brain, yet we kind of bring it all together into this coherent string or coherent narrative. So I've always found, um, you know, research on like illusions that break that, you know, when you see a mirage or an illusion, you know what's happening cognitively that's actually challenging that perceptual frame. And I reckon with liminality it's something similar probably going on, but we don't quite know all of the mechanisms that are underlying it. And there's also this kind of maybe more artistical creative element to it as well that draws us into that in-between state of maybe transitioning from here to there.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (12:15):
Yeah, I mean you've described liminality well already. I wonder is there more that we can say in describing what we mean by liminality? So like one of the things that I wondered when I was watching the film is like this perceptual experience I've had in the past probably had it more as a young person when you're in a really large space, like feeling like the corner of a a room is, is further away or moving further away or I've been to big stadium gigs and, and just that sense of looking up and seeing how large and vast a space is that that was part of what was unsettling for me in thinking about what I thought this kind of concept was. But I'm, I'm starting to think about it differently from your description. So with that very vague prompt .

Dr Alexander De Foe (12:57):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of different elements kind of coming into play here. It's not necessarily just the space itself, but I think it's also people's psychological mindset as well coming into it. And I've certainly had, you know, some experiences like this recently of um, walking around kind of renovated places around Melbourne City. I think one of them was near, um, the art center and there's like some shopping strips and places like that where they're kind of been renovated but not quite complete. And as you're walking through it, it's like, you know, you'd expect there to be complete shops, but it's actually just endless hallways that you, you kind of feel lost and disoriented. So I think there is, you know, the features of the objects themselves, but also I think we can be in like a bit of a liminal mind state as well.

Dr Alexander De Foe (13:42):
Maybe, I dunno, kind of speculating here of like, you know, when you're waking up in the morning of that hazy state of being between a dream state and a waking state, I reckon mind state comes into it as well, you know, my understanding of the concept of liminality can apply across discipline. So it's not only a psychological construct construct, but can also, you know, apply an art and um, obviously in like developmental theory as well of someone going through, uh, rites of passage. Um, it's like a point of liminality from one one place to another. This, I don't know if this is maybe tangential, but I think, you know, some elements of the movie did touch on that as well with that whole sort of book about, you know, the hidden window or whatever it was and this idea of progressing from one place or another or getting stuck in life in one way or another. So I think there's that kind of kind of social and developmental lens as well. Um, so there's a few different ways we can look at it.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (14:34):
Alex, is this a term that you've been familiar with for a long time? Because I, I went to this film, uh, not knowing what I was gonna see. My partner Tim was like, I'm gonna take you to a movie. I don't wanna tell you anything about it. We'll just see what you think. Then afterwards he was explaining to me or mentioned liminality, I'd never heard this term before. So is this like, is this something as a cog scientist you've been familiar with for a long time and now it's picking up kind of more, you know, consciousness like consciously picked up in, um, popular context? Or is it more like it's a newer term being used to describe stuff that we've been talking about for a long time in sciences?

Dr Alexander De Foe (15:13):
I think so, yeah. And this is, uh, I tend to gravitate towards these sort of areas in research where some things like come out of pop culture, but it's not actually in the literature yet. Like, another example of that that I'm looking at with my research at the moment is, um, uh, autonomous sensory meridian response. The as MR sort of phenomena which comes more from culture and then is, is now gained like quite a research, um, sort of track in terms of evaluating like what's actually happening when people experience the sensation. Likewise with liminality, um, my understanding is it comes more from pop culture and this sort of idea of these videos or spaces being captured and then videos being produced to try and emulate, um, liminality. But if you actually look at the literature, I don't believe there's much, uh, I mean it might be mentioned in a couple of places, but I actually think this is a good opportunity maybe for researchers, you know, now that it's getting traction for researchers to actually look at, you know, can we think of a model or kind of a theoretical framework that maybe would explain what's happening in these liminal states?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (16:20):
What are the things you like itching to talk about from the film?

Dr Alexander De Foe (16:24):
Well, I'm curious to hear what, what you think about it, because I think you said maybe earlier on when we were chatting that you were maybe expecting the, the narrative would go somewhere different. And I certainly, um, I think I was surprised by that, that the movie did open with this sort of psychology set or counseling session between, um, the, the therapist and client. And I actually thought, so we haven't really talked about this with him, like going into the back rooms, but then eventually she follows him into the back rooms and, and I thought she was going to like rescue him or something like that. I don't know if you were thinking something similar, but then it kind of takes a bit of a different turn. So I found that that yeah, that was one of the sort of interesting points that it may be. And maybe also, I don't know if it's a, if I would call it a strength of the film, I thought like they were gonna take that psychological aspect somewhere more interesting, but then it kind of ends up dropping off.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (17:16):
Yeah, interesting. 'cause I think character wise and with the, with the, um, the backgrounds of the characters, that peak scene was where he has her tied down at the table. And then there's the other kind of memory memories of people. It's interesting 'cause one of them is is his ex-wife or, um, the wife that he's separated from in the corner behind him. But then the, the other two kind of memory characters seem to be unknown to him, right? They're just, um, echoes of memories of however many times removed. I kept thinking about inception of like how many levels deeper we might go into someone's memory than inception film. Um, which I kept trying to find a scaffold for back rooms while I was watching it where I was like, oh, this is like inception, like, ah, , it's not, it's nothing like that. Or it's like this film.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (18:17):
And so it kept being, I felt unsettled because I kept not being able to quite work out where it was gonna go or how I was supposed to feel. So I thought, okay, this is a psychological thriller and then it had horror parts, but it really wasn't, as you say, like a traditional kind of horror. Mm-hmm . I thought from the start that the, that male character who is seeking psychological support and then goes in to the back rooms, I thought here's a guy who's, he's pretty violent. Like he we're gonna build up to a point where he, he um, probably tries to hurt this psychologist, um, and that she'll be the helper who wants to come in and, and eventually does help him and helps him see his ways and they get out, um, which they don't . Um, but that, that kind of, um, peak conflict where they're playing out that role play together and he seems like he's in complete control, right?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (19:16):
And he's found this place that feels safe to him because he doesn't have to, you know, I guess I'm quite interested from like a trauma perspective and the decisions that people, you know, what it kind of beats over your head to start with in this film is like people keep making the same decisions, doing the same behaviors over and over again, almost being like confused of why they're not getting different outcomes. But he, he takes this real kind of comfort and, and solace in being in this space. I'm not even really sure what his intention was for what he was gonna do with her except play out that conversation and then the pirate comes in and when you think you think he's in control, he's, you know, that facade of, I don't know, I would maybe the ego that he put into that character of, you know, filming as the pirate for the, for the commercial for his furniture store and that that's where he felt he had most power and, and was the biggest and could present in a way that he had control of. And then that ended up kind of like quite physically consuming him. I'm still kind of like processing it .

Dr Alexander De Foe (20:29):
Yeah, it was, there was a few bits and pieces there that I think, I'm not sure if they were meant to make sense or if there was meant to be a coherence. I think it could certainly be interpreted for that sense of like, know psychological constructs, like the ido the ego taking over. And I, I wish that they did kind of develop that a bit more 'cause there was this kind of idea of being trapped by one's own, you know, beliefs or, or narratives. But then ultimately, um, yeah, maybe it is something like that, that they took on a life of their own and then just took over that particular situation and, um, with this, you know, alter ego of a version of him ultimately, I don't know, maybe it represents that it ultimately conquered his will or striving to fight against it. Um, but yeah, it seemed, it seemed like it got rushed through quite quickly that segment. Um, but it was well done in terms of the direction of it and how creepy and like, there are a few people in the cinema that I think were like gasping and like a bit freaked out by just how eerie the, as you say, like the side side characters in the room and the unusual emotions and yes, you can eat them

Dr Jaz MacDonald (21:39):
Like the , the, the, yeah, when he, he's like, it's not just like it's psychologically sustaining him. You can eat these char, you know, eat these people and it physically sustains him. And when he, um, you know, uh, scalped the, the redhead in the background, the character of like his ex-wife and then put her hair on the psychologist, I was like, I guess that's where the horror came in. Quite like the shock of the horror in the space. But you never really, you could never see, I guess if we go back to the liminal part, you can never quite see the whole room in that scene. And you're quite conscious that this space behind him that you can't always see, which plays out quite well when that large, you know, pirate character comes in.

Dr Alexander De Foe (22:24):
Yeah, I think there's something unusual about these, you know, characters no longer having life or no longer having autonomy. They're kind of like, I think they're described as like replicas. He also remarks that there's something kind of surreal or, um, beautiful about that. The fact that they're like echoes of something real but no longer quite real, um, in itself. And it makes me think of, again, consciousness and kind of like different levels of experience and um, you know, the shadow or aspects of ourselves that are unconscious. Um, and how, you know, again, this is maybe one layer of interpretation, but how that might be playing out in some of these scenes as well.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (23:07):
I think what I had expected was maybe more repetition as well. So there's repetition in physical space and I think most of this Tim mentioned to me, I haven't looked it up, but, um, Tim mentioned that this is one giant set that was built for this film. And there was one part where I think when that main male character gets freaked out for the first time and he goes through a small door and then he ends back up in a room that he was previously, previously in and he, and he gets out. And I'd expected more of that, but then the rest of the film was just going on and on into these new spaces and some being more, um, sparse and some being like a lot more furnished or, or more complicated or more to a stereotype of certain spaces. Like there was a bit that almost felt like a Bunnings warehouse space where there's like these miniature houses or shed spaces that she's running through when she's trying to, um, to protect herself. And yeah, I don't even know why it was unsettling, but it, it's like, I guess maybe uncanny the uncanny aspect of it as well.

Dr Alexander De Foe (24:17):
Mm-hmm.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (24:18):
I guess I had also kind of expected maybe it would be more personalized to each person who was in the space and to see more of her childhood home or her mom. I was always waiting for her mom to come back in and to be a bit of a, like maybe either a comfort character or, or something that was a little bit scary, um mm-hmm. But that maybe it didn't fall into a trope that I thought her background might might've played in the film.

Dr Alexander De Foe (24:48):
Yeah, I I thought one of the strengths is that, um, the acting in the film for the most part was actually quite good and they tried to develop a bit of a backstory, but I think it just wasn't really taken anyway. Like what kind of was the point of introducing that sort of backstory of her character without them tying it, you know, to the back rooms themselves? I think it's certainly focused a lot more on the perceptual aspect rather than, you know, how it's resolved for the characters. And then in the end she just ends up, uh, I think she gets out, but then is she really free from it? It's a like, a bit unclear what the resolution, um, there actually is.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (25:27):
I also felt like there was a bit of, is this a 1984? Is this an experiment that's happening? Like there's cameras, you, you realize quite early on in the film that one of the characters is watching. And so I found myself constantly wondering like when, how that would play out. Is this like a lost situation like again, I think my brain was like a probably a lot of us stew when we go to mainstream films of like looking for a scaffold that I could pin this onto and never really quite being able to do that. And so in the end when she's kind of rescued, like you think she's rescued and then, you know, he's a, he's a scientist of some kind and he's just trying to grapple with what the back rooms are and just needs to understand from her perspective. And there's one line where he says, the doors just keep opening, which is beautiful because they don't like this is, is this a Schrodinger's box situation? Like if you don't open their next door, is there another room like this, the human behavior or this human instinct to be like, well the doors just keep opening and it's like, no, it's like stop opening the doors because it's not getting any better the further you go.

Dr Alexander De Foe (26:43):
Yeah, exactly. Yes. kind of the attempting, attempting fate I suppose in a way, I think that observation element is a part of the original sort of aspect of the airiness in that like if you've ever gone to like a shopping mall or something really early in the morning and there's no one around, there's almost like the sense of there should be someone around, you're kind of look looking around, are there actually other people here? 'cause it feels like there should be. And I think they, um, captured that quite well as well with um, that sense of, you know, other presence or like, almost like expecting that as they peak around the corner there's gonna be like someone else there. And, and of course, you know, in some instances there is like, there are other, um, entities I guess in the environment, but then as they approach closer, they're not really real or they're kind of more, you know, figments of the space itself that have been consumed by the space. What I've heard it might be, you know, of more films coming out around this, so maybe there will be some answers around that, but you know, it would be interesting where they take it.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (27:49):
Oh, a follow up to backroom

Dr Alexander De Foe (27:50):
Potentially.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (27:52):
Yeah. Interesting. For

Dr Alexander De Foe (27:53):
Better or worse , would

Dr Jaz MacDonald (27:54):
I watch that? Yeah, I think I would. I think, I think I would, I um, I mentioned this in my post online. I watched this film at Palace in Westgarth, which is an older theater, you know, like one of the 18 hundreds Melbourne theaters turned into a cinema with different rooms and I watched it in, um, cinema one, and it has like, the film ended and we're watching the credits and it has all these, like, because it's renovated into this space, it has all these really weird angles. The the color of the walls is actually quite similar to in back rooms. There's these weird little stairs that go up onto this stage in front of the screen that, that I've just never noticed that all these things were there before and it, it had this weird continuation feeling of like, wait, , what is space and ? It was the, um, the film's over, but now feeling the weirdness in this room as like a hangover after effect of watching that. Um, yeah, quite, I felt that quite deeply It was. And then I had a, a lot of weird dreams as well.

Dr Alexander De Foe (29:07):
Yeah, it's, I think it's interesting that, yeah, like likewise I think, yeah, the dreams after that , I think it's these sort of perceptual sets that get challenged and then it influences our experience because, um, as you know, I've done a lot of work with like virtual reality in the past as well and sometimes we get a similar effect where someone takes off the VR headset and they're kind of disoriented for a while 'cause it's like it takes a while for the room dimensions and perceptual set to, to readjust. So it's interesting that that film had a bit of a similar effect in that way.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (29:40):
I'm pretty curious, I guess about physical schemas for, for a space, what makes something an office space or a furniture store or, and then the way furniture was used in different ways in this film.

Dr Alexander De Foe (29:52):
Yeah, again, it comes down to both the external and internal representation. So I think because our perceptions are always filtering things out and kind of shaping the environments, but sometimes things get through that kind of trick, the perceptions or again, you know, there's probably a lot of examples of that, like, um, walking to any sort of furniture store where like it feels like the, like a couch or a table is like too high or like too long. It kind of challenges the perceptual framing. Um, I think in terms of a lot of this, you know, again, comes down more to the um, perceptual type theories like, um, um, treasons ob object recognition theory and how we like, you know, recognize an object for what it is. And then if we take away even one feature of that object, the entire like gestalt of the object collapses and then it no longer makes sense.

Dr Alexander De Foe (30:42):
And this is kind of debated amongst cognitive scientists in terms of is that in the external environment itself or is it more in our perceptions and how our perceptions are framed? And from an evolutionary standpoint, how our, um, perceptions have been developed to try and make sense of the world, even if it's not a hundred percent accurate? Well I think one way to approach it in is with functionality. So are the objects, the space is functional and I, again, I think this is probably part of those liminal spaces is that technically it's a room. Like I think in one scene there was like a stop sign or something there. So technically these are things that are functional but they're not quite functional in the proper place or the, or the proper utility, which I think also makes it, yeah, so it kind of raises that question, I suppose of what is like a living room or what is a kitchen and what is, um, and I think, you know, there's probably, uh, whole fields around this of like, you know, how do you make a space look nice or how do you make an area look like it should look for that particular utility or purpose.

Dr Alexander De Foe (31:43):
Um, but then the opposite of like if something is off, does it no longer make it, you know, a proper living room or a proper, um, proper space for that particular purpose. But I don't know, I'm curious to hear what you think about this.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (31:56):
Yeah, well while you're describing that, I'm thinking about this in a new light of back rooms and liminal spaces being like the opposite of feng shui like yeah. Where the flow just doesn't feel right. Okay. I am thinking about this for the first time, so bear with me on this, but I'm kind of wondering how unsettling it might be at what points for people of different backgrounds in that growing up I lived in a range of different rental houses with my family. Often they were like lots of rental places are especially kind of larger ones. 'cause I had a bunch of siblings, things are kind of like hacked together and like improved over time. Mm-hmm . So there were some aspects where I was looking at things and going, oh, like that's kind of cool that that staircase goes up to another staircase. I'm like, obviously not to that extreme, but I've lived in houses before where there is kind of weird quirkiness like that. And then having gone to more like, you know, modern recently built houses that are built for purpose perfect to that design. I'm kind of curious of like people's different appetite for what feels unsettling based on the kinds of places that they've lived before.

Dr Alexander De Foe (33:09):
Mm-hmm .

Dr Jaz MacDonald (33:10):
I wanted there to be a reason for the piles of furniture . It became clear to me through the film that we're talking about levels of memory and removal from the original image or the original stimulus that's now turned into this representation. And so we've got, you know, um, armos half in a wall or what looks like it's melted through the ceiling or whatever. But when there was the piles of furniture or piles of clothes, I was the whole time looking for this reason for them to be there, which comes back to that utility, that function that you're talking about. And I was thinking like maybe, you know, the first space he goes into when he goes through the door, there's all this fur furniture piled up and I was thinking, okay, so there's like another portal or something like someone's been trying to find a way out and so they've put all this furniture up. Um, and the birds, they were like birds that had seemed to like fly in hit walls. And so I was thinking, have they come through this space from outside? And I don't think either of those things were proven or disproven, but I found myself putting a lot of cognitive effort into trying to work out why those things were there.

Dr Alexander De Foe (34:27):
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think, and I noticed in a couple of those scenes, like you remind me now of the clothes scene when, um, they're looking at the clothes again, it's this kind of object recognition thing where I think they're like faces in the clothes or at least what appears to be like patterns of faces and you're not quite sure if it's part of the clothing or not part of the clothing and there's yeah, real disorienting, um, feeling around it. Um, but I also like the first time with those stacked chairs, the first thing I thought of is, um, our, you know, our mutual, um, colleague James Collette and his hoarding researcher. That's the first thing I thought of was like, this is like kind of being hoarded together, . Um, so

Dr Jaz MacDonald (35:10):
Yeah. Yeah. So then you're wondering like, are there groups of people who are living in here almost like abandoned subway lines or something and they're collecting the things that they're finding and hoarding them? Firstly, I love a shout out to James that makes me happy. , I felt really unsettled by the clothes because in films where there are spaces like this where there's almost like, to me there was like an implied deviance of like, what's the purpose of being in here? And then you go into this space where there's all these clothes without rhyme or reason. It's not clearly like one person's things. It's like what's happened to people who have come here before? Is this like a collection of the clothes of people who have become trapped and captured in this space? But I don't think it was that either. I think it was just like, I don't know, it was all these kind of everyday objects that have meaning and in context are innocuous or create identity or, you know, safety in a space to just like, how could this be unsettling? Like yeah, let's, let's make this space dark and you can't really tell what you're looking at. And there was at least one very creepy face in a pile of the clothing that I was waiting for that to be a monster or something that would jump out. And then it never did, which was you don't even get the satisfaction of the jump scare , you know, like it's, it's unresolved tension.

Dr Alexander De Foe (36:40):
Yes. And I think this, this contrast I think also like it was really nicely designed even like with the color and um, textures and everything around that unsettling feeling. But I think it's interesting that there's also kind of the inverse of that. So whenever we like, again, kind of going back to the sort of perception concepts, whenever there's two star um, differences, it doesn't have to always be unsettling. Like that's often found in art as well. And you know, even like in music in other contexts where genres are um, kind of melded in a way that doesn't make sense where you take two perceptual things that are quite different that shouldn't make sense, but they're actually really striking and um, can be quite beautiful. So it could be similar concepts that are played with, but obviously in this context it's more to create that feeling of, I'd say it makes me think if there's, if there's similar mechanistic processes cognitively that are, you know, creating that feeling.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (37:36):
Oh, I, I love that observation, Alex. It's like, I mean conceptually it feels similar to me of, um, comedy and drama not really being that different. It's about how timing and context impacts. So it's, you know, you can have these really great comedic actors who play really intense roles really well because of their timing and, and using, yeah, using the flip side of what makes something funny to make something feel emotional, sad or even scary, that perceptual aspect and linking that to music that, you know, like, um, we have dissonance in music, you know, like we have cognitive dissonance. Fascinating. I've already talked to you for way longer than I promised

Dr Alexander De Foe (38:28):
A lot of topics for discussion. These um, these concepts Yeah. To chat about.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (38:35):
Agreed. Yeah. Is there anything else before we kind of round up the episode that we, we wanna talk about?

Dr Alexander De Foe (38:41):
Yeah, you asked at the start if it's a maybe to recommend and um, I'd say, you know, if people looking for something that has psychological depth might be a bit disappointed, but certainly if they're interested in exploring these kind of cognitive or perceptual ideas or the sense of different take on the horror genre might find it interesting. But yeah, I guess that's probably what I'll leave it with.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (39:04):
Yeah, I like that. I want to leave it with a comment on, um, mental health practice, which is so many times we watch films and the psychologist is like sleeping with the client or they're doing something and it really concerns me about people's perceptions of what mental health practice is. And so I will say just wanna say that doing a welfare check on your client, if they work in a furniture store and you keep yourself safe, maybe that's okay following them like going into the basement when it's dark and no one's around and then going into these back rooms through a wall that's probably not best practice .

Dr Alexander De Foe (39:48):
That's funny. .

Dr Jaz MacDonald (39:53):
And she says she has this realization with him where she's like, yeah, I can't make you change or I can't change you, only you can. And I was like, oh, maybe that's the only trope in the whole film

Dr Alexander De Foe (40:05):
That I may, maybe that realization should have come a bit earlier before following .

Dr Jaz MacDonald (40:09):
That's right. Exactly. Uh, Alex, lovely excuse to hang out and nerd out with you. Um, thanks for coming on this journey where we didn't, you know, we didn't plan this out, we're just reacting and thinking about what we enjoyed about this film or, or, um, uh, yeah, the experience that we had and our reactions to it. Really appreciate you taking the time. Um, and yeah, I feel like I've learned, I feel like I've learned a lot from you of applying the cognitive science stuff in such a casual way 'cause you're, you've got a lot of knowledge, but you didn't, um, you know, that was such a, a practical, useful, casual way to share it with an audience. So thanks so much for taking the time.

Dr Alexander De Foe (40:53):
Yeah, I'm glad it came across that way. And, um, thanks for the last minute invite and yeah, I love talking about these topics. I appreciate it. Thank you.