Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:00:10):
Hey there and welcome to the 2026 Halloween special of Psych Attack: The Psychology of Fear. I'm Dr. Jaz MacDonald. I'm joining you from Naarm / Melbourne. And today I'm here with Holly Helprin.

Speaker 2 (00:00:24):
Hi, thanks Jaz. Yes, uh, my name is Holly Helprin and I am joining from Gadigal Land. I am here today to talk a bit about the psychology of fear. So just to kind of set the stage, I should clarify, I'm not an expert on fear. Um, I'm more so a researcher who enjoys what I like to call scary fun. Um, as an researcher who enjoys exploring the perspectives of experts and kind of everything I do from the kind of mundane to the professional, I'm interested in what we know or at least what we think we know about fear. I also wanna preface by saying that I also wanted to say that I'm a constructivist, which means I'm interested in thinking about why we think we know the things that we know. So it's really about how we construct, um, certain things to be true. And you'll notice throughout the content I have to share with you today, um, we're really focusing on people, um, and how different people have added to our understanding of fear.

Speaker 2 (00:01:34):
Before I start though, we're gonna start with fear as biology. So what we know about the brain and the body and its response to fear. And this is really what we can measure in the human body. So the first step, um, to your body experiencing fear is when you sense a threat, so a stimuli. When you are able to sense a threat, that threat, um, gets sent to your amygdala, um, and that's kind of an arm and shaped bundle of neurons that receive sensory inputs. Your amygdala activates other parts of your body, um, and the brain, like the hypothalamus and the brainstem, which in turn activate systems in the body like the nervous system, which is your fight or flight system, your adrenal cordal system, as well as the endocrine system. And the result is an increase of blood flow, oxygen, um, around the body to help you get ready to respond.

Speaker 2 (00:02:36):
You get more adrenaline and cortisol, and you also experience a release of hormones like endorphins and dopamine. So that's a really quick run through. Jas, what do you think about that kind of assessment of what fear, um, does to your body as you sense it? Does that sound right from your perspective as someone who knows a lot more about brains than I do?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:02:58):
It, it does. Um, I always really enjoyed this part of like talking about this aspect of emotion and fear. I like it because, um, it feels like it's the part that is that visceral response that everybody's been scared at some point, right? So I like to think about the, um, like why you feel butterflies in your tummy when you get really nervous or like whether it's on a rollercoaster and you're bit scared or you get really nervous of getting up in front of people and public speaking because that seems to be like the biggest threat in modern times. It's no longer being scared because of saber-toothed tiger or something . Um, so that like, do you get that hole, that kind of like butterflies in your tummy? Do you know what it is?

Speaker 2 (00:03:45):
Um, I don't know what it is biologically, but I've definitely experienced it.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:03:49):
Yeah, it's like all that stuff that you were talking about in addition to that, uh, if we're gonna get eaten by a saber tooth tiger, we don't need to digest the Big Mac that we had. Don't worry about the inconsistency in my metaphor. But all the blood goes out of your intestines and your stomach into your large muscles so that you can run and fight and that gives you, like that's your body prepping to run and fight.

Speaker 2 (00:04:11):
Okay, that's really interesting. And yeah, I think that for me, the brain, um, study of the brain, um, is a bit, um, plexing because it's like a brain trying to understand itself, um, which is really interesting of itself. Um, and, but there are kind of a lot of limitations to what we can measure. So while, you know, when you look at the things about, you know, the brain, especially in kind of like intro to psych 101, it all sounds quite simple and like we're kind of 100% sure what's going on in the body, but in reality, there are quite a few limitations to what we can measure. So there's, um, complexity, I guess, in what the, the steps that I spoke through before. Uh, one of the limitations we can measure is, um, that we can't, we can measure kind of larger, larger parts of the brain and larger parts of the body, but there are nuances in terms of within things like the hypothalamus and the brain stem.

Speaker 2 (00:05:12):
When we s - when I spoke through the steps of the, what happens to your brain when you kind of, um, respond to a threatening stimuli, I kind of said it with a, with a highly high level of certainty as if we know exactly what's happening, but there's actually a lot more that we don't know about the brain than what we do know. We can measure things like what parts of the brain are being activated, but we can't necessarily see what parts of those parts are being activated. Um, it's also challenging because, you know, different people respond and are fearful to different things. Um, so we can't necessarily in a laboratory set up trust that everyone is going to feel the same or have the same kind of response to the same stimuli. There is also evidence that different types fear activate different parts of those parts of the brain.

Speaker 2 (00:06:03):
So not only is there individual differences in, in what parts of the brain, um, your body, uh, uses when it processes stimuli, but there's also differences depending on what that stimuli is, which is to say things like the h - amygdala hypothalamus and our nervous system doesn't just get turned on and off, and off. And just I was wondering if you wanted to pick up a bit on this, um, pick up a bit on this point as someone who's had experience in this kind of research, what issues you can encounter when measuring body responses in elab?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:06:38):
Mm, yeah, good one. Well, what's kind of interesting is that the physiological responses that we have that m - kind of make up how it feels to be afraid, like stuff like sweaty hands, increased heart rate, um, like maybe that, the, the butterflies in your tummy, those kinds of things, you might, you might get those when you, you're walking through like a haunted house at a, you know, somewhere you might, you might get those when you're walking through a haunted house. Um, but you might also kind of get sweaty hands and butterflies in your tummy and increased heart rate when you see someone that you're really into, right? So the physiological pattern and not necessarily specific brain regions, I think what you're saying there is kind of spot on, like there is, um, just seeing an area light up on a functional MRI isn't necessarily telling us like what's happening there, um, and those areas can light up when, when, in a whole range of situations, like you said.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:07:41):
But I like, I like that kind of complexity of the physiological responses we have. They actually can look similar to very different emotions, and so that makes it kind of hard to study to just break it down to these physiological things as well. But then also, you know, um, I think you, you've already mentioned this, you might find something really scary that I don't and vice versa, um, but it's even as nuanced as research showing there's that cognitive aspect of how you interpret that physiological response. Um, so there's like really cool studies. I think that, um, like the Catolano Bridge, I've probably got that wrong, apologies to folks listening from Canada. Um, but there's this really cool kind of study that showed, um, they got folks to walk across this suspension bridge over a gorge, and it's like a rickety bridge, and they had this really attractive research assistant.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:08:35):
This is a, this is a very heter- heteronormative dated study, right? But the idea was, depending on how the guys who filled the survey out after they walked over the bridge interpreted their feeling, where they're like, "Oh, I've got this heart rate increase because I'm walking over this bridge over a gorge, I'm scared or I'm excited." Um, some folks interpret it as like, "Oh, like I'm in, I'm attracted to this person," or like in the study they say they're in love.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:09:03):
Whatever you need to write to kind of get your work, you know, it's, it's a, it's a little clickbait there. Um, so that's like a long way of saying like with, with a classic study example, sometimes it's about how we interpret it. So like maybe high performers in terms of public speaking go, "Oh, my tummy doesn't feel quite right. Like I'm tingling in my muscles. I'm getting ready. I'm getting ready. This is adrenaline." Where someone else might go, "Oh, this is bad. Like, I, I'm feeling all this in my body and this is a scary situation. I need to get out of here."

Speaker 2 (00:09:35):
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I guess that resonates really strongly with me because I actually, I do, I do kind of like public speaking, which I know is a bit, is a bit wild, but I still do get those kind of butterfly moments. But I understand this part of the process of, okay, I'm like alert, I'm twitched on, I am going to be responsive to what, what's happening here. I can acknowledge it as being kind of a high intensity situation, I suppose, without necessarily thinking something bad's gonna happen because of that high intensity.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:10:08):
Right, yes.

Speaker 2 (00:10:09):
And Jess, I do just wanna know, while we're speaking, I can see lightning and thunder start outside the room, so we're definitely getting ready for the spooky season this afternoon.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:10:22):
That's amazing. Couldn't, couldn't have planned it better.

Speaker 2 (00:10:28):
Yeah, absolutely. So when, um, when we're talking about, you know, what happens to the brain, um, when we, and, um, when we sense something we hear, um, it's really just kind of an average, what an average pain or what a study of lots of brains when we look at them, um, are telling us rather than what the individual brain does.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:10:52):
Yeah. And, and often these, like, neurological studies, the samples are pretty small because they, they're quite expensive to run. Yeah. Like, we might be talking 10, 15, 20, 25, um, folks in, like, a functional MRI study.

Speaker 2 (00:11:07):
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, not only a small number of, a number of people in each study, but also kind of a bias towards certain types of people. So, um, a lot of studies, uh, you know, you need this kind of machinery, um, to do these studies, so they kind of take place in universities. They often involve university students, um, and there's a lot more studies from kind of Western countries, um, than there are from, um, outside of those kinds of, um, OECD countries. Mm, for sure. There's also, obviously, one big, um, limitation, um, is that, you know, if you're in a study, you know what you're being exposed to isn't actually going to, to be dangerous, so we can't necessarily, um, know whether this is how the brain actually really works, uh, when you are, you know, just naturally exposed to something that, that's fear and you see.

Speaker 2 (00:12:05):
Right. We already spoke a bit about differences between individuals. Um, and I think that, um, one of the other things that's worth mentioning is there are people with kind of minor differences, you know, just minor kind of biological differences, the, um, differences between the utensity that different parts, um, of the brain are working towards, how the different parts interact or kind of connect with each other, because obviously, you know, we're talking about what different parts of the brain and different bodily systems, so those connections can be different. Um, but there are also some major differences between, um, between how people respond to fear. Um, some of the ones I could find were around, um, damage to the amygdala. So some people have experienced damage to certain parts of their brain, and these kind of people are often said as living without fear. Um, there's quite a famous example of this, um, who was a woman known as SM, um, and she had a rare condition that caused damage to her amygdala, leading to her not feeling, or at least having a reduced behavioral response to fear during adulthood, despite feeling a wide range of other emotions.

Speaker 2 (00:13:19):
And what's interesting about this one is that because this developed over time, she remembered what it was like to feel fear when she was young before she, um, had damage to her amygdala, so she was able to kind of compare and contrast from her memories what fear was, um, before she experienced tho - that damage. So there was a study, um, about SM from 2011 that included quite a few behavioral observations, um, as well as recounts of previous experiences, um, and self-report questionnaires, which found that SM did experience anger in response to threats of violence in her past. Um, she'd had, uh, you know, quite an upsetting event happen to her, and she, and she could recall what that felt. She wasn't fearful of the danger that was present, but she knew that it was... She kind of more felt like an injustice towards it - Mm.

Speaker 2 (00:14:14):
Um, and an offense rather than a, you know, a needing to kind of run away, I suppose. So that kind of - Um, another thing... Logical

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:14:21):
Cognitive response, "This isn't okay, this is a threat to me, is that good, bad," but not the overwhelming emotional aspect that can lead to, um, certain behaviors like wanting to fight, wanting to cry, wanting to run. Interesting.

Speaker 2 (00:14:38):
Yeah, she knew it was wrong, um, but, you know, in some ways, it sounds like kind of she was able to process it in, um, maybe a bit more, um, of a way that would be more usual for someone after the, after an event where you're able to see that something bad happened, but you were, you weren't directly in that threatening scenario, so you were able to kind of use, um... Sometimes, um, these studies talk about the kind of free frontal cortex and that kind of part of your brain that's able to reason - Yeah. Um, rather than the parts of your brain that are a bit more, um, responsive, I suppose. Right.

Speaker 2 (00:15:12):
They also, um, put her through a few different trials, I suppose. Um, they, uh, had her attend a haunted house, um, and she reported lots of excitement and curiosity in the things that, that were in the haunted house, um, and well as showing her some kind of fear-inducing films, um, where she reported both kind of disgust, you know, that kind of revoltion for something, you know, gnarly happening on stream, but also kind of entertainment, um, and she kind of apparently reportedly had a good time. So it's interesting there that she enjoyed the film even though she couldn't fee- feel necessarily those kinds of fear that we might experience when we're watching someone scary.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:15:57):
Oh, interesting. This is, this is reminding me of something with the camera operators research that I haven't talked about for ages. Can I tell you about that, Holly? So for my, um, PhD, I did this research with, um, what was the difference in trauma exposure and reactions for in TV news workers, and some of them were camera operators and some were reporters. Um, and I was thinking a lot about how camera operators would say when they're looking through the lens and their camera, that they're not feeling afraid. Like, they'll often would move towards danger without having that emotional response, like you're saying with SN, but when the camera's down, they 100% have that emotional response. Um, and so we didn't... I didn't have the, the funding all the time on top of what else I did in my PhD to do the neurological aspect of this.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:16:49):
But, um, the way that cameras are configured, these big news cameras sit on your right shoulder, you look through your right eye through the viewfinder, it's in black and white as well, like the, the monitor, um, that pops out, that's color, but when you look through the viewfinder, and the way that all senses except smell work is contralateral. So anything that's the neurological word for saying anything that goes into my right eye is actually processed via the left brain and the left amygdala, which is, um, uh, going to kind of bypass the emotional aspect of the amygdala and be more about conscious sustained watching. And so there's like a whole bunch of studies on birds where when they're, when they experience an emotional threat, they're watching with their left eye and it goes to the right amygdala. So it was like, oh, that's k - like it, it's anecdotal at this point, it's like this observational thing.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:17:46):
And then there was only a couple of camera operators who I interviewed who were left-handed, and so had the setup, even though it didn't really allow for it, they kinda hacked the system to view the other way, and they f, they never had that difference. They found it was as emotional looking through the viewfinder as camera being down. And I was like, "Well, that's in, that's interesting." It was a very small part of my thesis because there's not a lot of evi - not a lot of evidence and no one had looked at that before. Um, but yeah, just talking about the amygdala and, and the emotional and fear reaction there, it was like, "Oh, this, this is a thing."

Speaker 2 (00:18:25):
Yeah, that's super interesting. So did they have their other eyes shut usually when you're doing the filming? Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, being, your body being told, like, this is in, you know, this is in black and white kind of makes it not real in some ways, and, and it sounds like their brain proc- processed it, um, differently as well. So that's, that's really interesting. Um, and I'm sure some of you at some stage will wanna study it. Another thing, um, difference, um, and a big part of the body that we've been speaking about then is the nervous system. Um, so it's the synthetic nervous system that triggers what we call the fight or flight response. And that, um, is really, uh, varies from person to person. And actually, it's called the fight or flight response kind of more generally, but there's ideas popping up now about there being a lot more, um, things that can, um, happen in response to threats.

Speaker 2 (00:19:24):
So people talk about freeze. I definitely have freeze. Um, I get kind of shocked and then stuck in place. Um, and there's quite a few other ones, um, that can happen as well. Um, another thing to note about the nervous system is something that Des and I, um, researched together was around neurodivergence. And, um, neurodivergence or, you know, differences in brains, um, a lot about literature is around the neurophage system and how people who have certain, um, identities or certain diagnoses, um, respond, their nervous and literally responds to what they're experiencing differently. So it can be a difference, a difference of interpretation, but it can also be a difference of that kind of physiological response happens to them. Hmm. Another interesting point that I found in the research is that the term fight or flight is set to be coined by a biologist who is writing about fear, as well as things like rage, pain, and hunger in 1915.

Speaker 2 (00:20:31):
So there's definitely quite a few study about this.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:20:35):
I, one of the things that I love about having worked with you and, and, um, getting to have a friendship with you is your interest in the people and the history behind things. So of course you know when that term was coined. Like, of course that's a part of the conversation today, and I, I really appreciate that about you.

Speaker 2 (00:20:55):
More than anything, as a researcher, I'm not interested in, like, finding the truth per se, as much as I am interested in finding out what we think, um, and the people behind what we think. There are also differences around, again, diagnosis related things like anxiety, chronic stress, trauma, um, and already mentioned neurodivergence that have been, um, associated with different ways of reacting to fearful stimuli on that kind of biochemical level that we were talking about before. And Jas, I just wanted to know, um, what you though of, uh, the kind of use of the term associated, um, because when we've been working together, we've spoken a lot about, you know, whether there's that kind of ca- causal relationship between biological differences and fear, um, or whether it is a little bit more complicated, um, than that.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:21:55):
Interesting. Yeah. I, um, at ISPCAN conference a few weeks back, the International Society for the Prevention of Child Abuse and Neglect, it was in Melbourne this year, and I was sitting in a session that was about, um, yeah, responses to fear and, um, trauma and whether, uh, a whole range of, like, different neurological differences in the associations and, um, uh, whether it's causal, you know, what direction that is, and I though of you straight away because we've done a, a lot of thinking about this and, um, some folks have been working on it, so I'm gonna look that up and share it with you. Uh, it's an interesting one, right, because any one person's life is made up of so many different experiences, and that ability to separate out, like, what's happened in your environment to what, what's happening for you in that moment biologically compared to what biological predisposition that you might have in interaction with certain environments, uh, it's one that I think is really, uh, fascinating but really tricky to unpack.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:23:05):
And then we talk about association, I guess, of, well, right, we measure these things together, and it looks like as one goes up, the other goes up, or, um, as one goes down, the other goes up, and, like, whether there's some relationship between them, but we can't know if there's some third, fourth, or myriad things that impact it. But also, like, thinking about kind of conditioning, you know, we, we think about, like, Pavlovian conditioning or operant conditioning, it's like, well, what do we start to associate with being scary, even if that thing wasn't originally scary? And so, um, I don't... Is there a thing... What's the thing that we just know is spooky, even though it itself isn't inherently spooky? Like - I

Speaker 2 (00:23:50):
Guess clowns.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:23:52):
Clowns?

Speaker 2 (00:23:53):
That - Yeah, like - That's good one. I would argue. Um -

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:23:59):
And now by association, if you just saw a red balloon floating - Yeah. Through

Speaker 2 (00:24:05):
That

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:24:05):
Association, it's like, "No, wait, that's not okay."

Speaker 2 (00:24:08):
I've seen this before. Yeah, absolutely. Um, something - The draws

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:24:13):
Music. Mm. Right? That, again, through association, you hear that. If you hear that and you're in the ocean, that would, you'd 100% poop yourself.

Speaker 2 (00:24:22):
Not only because it's the drawl music, but because you're on the ocean, so, like, it's not, it's not usually music. Um - Where

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:24:27):
Does this come from?

Speaker 2 (00:24:28):
Yeah. There's also really interesting things around, like, a lot of horror, um, and we're gonna talk a bit more about horror movies, um, later on, hopefully, because that's really what Jas and I are both interested in. It's, that's why we're here. Um - ... That's why we're here, but, um, not because we're mad thrill singers or anything like that. It's, it's just sitting and watching a spooky movie. Um, but yeah, there's a lot of interesting, um, information you can find about the origins of certain kind of horror sounds, because a lot of it does come from kind of inversions of what we traditionally consider to be kind of good music and musical norms. Mm. So there's kind of, like, playing, um, a violin, uh, string backwards, for example, can really cause a lot of, um, can really cause the hair to stand the back of your neck because it's kind of familiar, but also kind of not familiar.

Speaker 2 (00:25:26):
Um, and a tone of music is another one that's c- commonly used in, in, um, in horror films where it is following not necessarily the norms and maybe, um, subverting the norms of the kind of tones that we like to hear. Oh. One last one to add to that would be the Halloween theme music, um, which, uh, is apparently, and I'm, again, I'm no expert on music, but it, it's kind of a, um, follows a certain rhythm and breaks that rhythm. Um, so it's kind of... I don't know if it's six notes or eight notes or something like that, but it just isn't what you expect, and it's not the, what the base of a lot of music we hear is, um, is focused on.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:26:18):
Yeah. Well, I, that broader idea of it being out of, uh, we're not prepared or it's unfamiliar ma- making it feel unsettling, that's super interesting.

Speaker 2 (00:26:30):
Yeah. It's like a pattern that we know, except it's a little bit different. Mm. Which I suppose is, to some extent, the clown thing. I mean, like, if we saw a clown at a child's party, we probably wouldn't be scared. If we saw a clown on the street, we'd probably be like, "What's that doing there? That doesn't belong." So - Yeah, I'm worried about this. Um - Yeah. No shade, no shade to clowns though. We, you're up there, we love you, we know you experience a lot of challenges.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:26:59):
And it's a legit art form.

Speaker 2 (00:27:01):
It's a legit art form, absolutely. That's kind of all I have on the kind of biochemical aspects of fear. Mm-hmm. Um, and now I'm gonna go into some kind of theories why we enjoy fear. And just for, you know, full transparency, um, to let people know about, you know, how I came up with, um, this list of theories that we're gonna go through today. Um, I was really trying to check theories over time and through individuals. Um, I'm trying to stick within psychology as well, obviously. This is a psychology podcast. Um, but I have s - one theory in there from philosophy that was cited by experts in, um, psychology. Um, I do, I do tend to like the kind of philosophy, um, side of things. Um, and I've s - in tru - full honesty, I've steered a bit clear from psychoanalytics. Um, um, because, um, yeah, I have some problems with Dr.

Speaker 2 (00:28:05):
Freud. Um, not as much Carla Young, but some problems with Dr. Freud. So we're sitting within a few different figures in this kind of, um, theory of fear.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:28:14):
I like your position statement. That's excellent. And you've done the biology and you're, um, you're later gonna talk about philosophy and they're considered the, the kind of parent, um, uh, disciplines that led to psychology. So I like that you bookended them. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:28:33):
Nice. Absolutely. And when I was, like, considering, like, is this psychology enough? I really... It was quite hard to, like, answer that question. Mm. Um, because it's such a broad field, so - Mm. I basically came down to going to the individual who was writing and seeing whether they called themselves, um, a psychologist or not. Nice. So we're gonna start off with, um, Zuckerman's theory of sensation-seeking. This is by Marvin Zuckerman. Um, he was a professor of psychology in the US, and he was writing about sensation seeking in the 1960s. So he saw sensation seeking as a personality trait that was related to seeking, and I'm quoting here, "Very novel, rich, and intense experiences and sensations." And his kind of theory there was that we had kind of a positive emotion, um, through the stimulation of these kind of sensation-seeking, um, traits.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:29:31):
Hmm.

Speaker 2 (00:29:32):
The cool thing is that he actually created a sensaking, sensation-seeking scale, so he's kind of has a kind of standardization or a measure, which means that we were able, um, to measure sensation-seeking, um, as a personality trait across different groups, um, in a kind of standardized way, rather than, you know, just looking at a research participant and saying, "Oh, yeah, you seem pretty, you seem like you're pretty into, into very novel, rich, and intense experiences."

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:30:00):
Questions are, how many times have you bungee jumped?

Speaker 2 (00:30:03):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's like none, but not because I haven't wanted to. Although in my case it is because I haven't wanted to. Um -

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:30:11):
This scale is cool. I've used this before. I've used this scale in substance use research because it's one of the predictors of addiction.

Speaker 2 (00:30:20):
Yeah, absolutely. That, yeah, that's really interesting. And, and did you take the test yourself?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:30:25):
Uh, yeah, I think I did. I think I did. Um, I don't think I, I wouldn't have... I'm very, I rate very high on openness and conscientiousness unsurprisingly. Um, but when it comes to sensation seeking, I think I like middle of the road. Uh, I'm a very like, I'm very attuned to the physical changes in my body, um, and like to be very prepared. So I, yeah, I don't think I s - I would rate very highly.

Speaker 2 (00:30:55):
Yeah, that's interesting. Mm-hmm. Zuckerman's sensation seeking scale has a few different categories. Um, we have disinhibition, thrill and adventure seeking, adventure seeking, and susceptibility to boredom. And one of the cool things about this scale, just that she's used it in the past, it's actually free. Um, and you can do it yourself, um, either just because you're interested or like Jazz did in kind of a research setting. I completed the scale, um, and my results were low on drill seeking, boredom susceptibility and disinhibition. None of those things were com - terribly surprising to me, but kind of high on experience seeking.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:31:38):
Interesting. So that's like about like going out and s- seeking experiences that you haven't really had before. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:31:46):
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, the scale, it was made in the 1960s. There was some quite odd things in there and, um, yeah, Paging Dr. Freud, there was some kind of quite sex- sexual el- elements to it as well. Um, so it was a bit, it was a bit strange. Um, but, you know, those are the results I got.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:32:05):
Oh, 100%. Like talking 1960s, 70s American-based work, like, and it's not outside of what we're talking about in this, but I won't, I won't go too deep into that, but that, you know, um, anything you'll see on like early serial killer research by the FBI, like if you watch, um, Mindhunters and they're talking about like, oh, these people, you know, um, these serial killers are, you know, sexually depraved, they look at pornography, they. They're like like all these things where it's like - Yeah. You're just like very Christian, influenced, very, um, yeah, basically like incredible kink shame, like in- insane. Those, the standards of the 1960s, uh, especially in a, in a psychology department. Yeah. Um, I don't remember those, those questions. Maybe we had, maybe we used like a very specific subset of like specific subscales in there because I, in the, um, in the alcohol and substance use studies we were doing, there wasn't anything that was, um, sexual related.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:33:16):
So that's pretty funny.

Speaker 2 (00:33:19):
Yeah. Well, well, you know, it's on, in the internet now, so I don't know. You know, they do get you to fill something out because I don't wanna calculate it myself, but, um, yeah, I'm just opening it up now. One of them is I dislike bodily odors or the alternative is I like some for the earthy, earthly body smells because I like some for the earthy body smells. Hmm. Anyway, things that you wouldn't think are related.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:33:49):
That's fascinating. Yeah. And yeah, all of this does kind of lead back to Freud, right? Freud, for all the issues that we have with Freud, first theory of personality. And it was, it was quite a developed theory, right? Um, but obviously we've, we've come a long way since then and even since Zuckerman's work, so.

Speaker 2 (00:34:11):
So kind of based on Zuckerman's theory and, and talking about fear, theoretically people who have high levels of sensation seeking, um, would seek out like and enjoy horror movies. When we test that kind of theory, it, it does seem to be inconsistent. So I wouldn't say that that's kind of a good measure for whether somebody likes horror movie or not.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:34:37):
Interesting. Okay.

Speaker 2 (00:34:39):
The second theorist I'd like to talk about today is, um, Dolph Zilleman. Um, he studied media psychology in the US, um, but he actually grew up in Poland during World War II, which I think, um, gives him a really kind of unique perspective on fear. And he, um, was writing actually a lot about suspense in the 1970s. So his theory, um, was that enjoyment of horror comes from the feeling of suspense. Mm-hmm. He defines suspense as acute fearful apprehension about deplorable events that threaten light protagonists. And he kind of thought that the build off of this emotion of fear, um, including what we've spoken about before, um, cortisol, adrenaline, dopamine can be enjoyed when a threat is resolved. Mm.

Speaker 2 (00:35:36):
Again, um, when we kind of test that theory out, I mean, even just in a kind of logical sense, with this theory, um, I though it was really interesting because it didn't necessarily match my experience of fear. So I can enjoy something when there isn't a resolution to the threat or the threat isn't no longer there. Um, and I think a lot of horror movie fans would agree there's kind of a bit of a trope that comes up around the monster always coming back. So, you know, oftentimes in those kind of movies, you have, you know, the, um, you know, the final girl winning out, and then all of a sudden, um, you know, you get to a d- dreamy space and maybe Jason Voorhees pops out of the water into the canoe or Carrie sticks her hand out of the grave of her house.

Speaker 2 (00:36:28):
Um, so it's an interesting theory, um, but it doesn't necessarily resonate for me personally. What do you think about that idea?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:36:37):
Yeah, I, I, I like your observation there because I think the, it's the lack of resolution. May- maybe it's cake and eat it too. You think you have the resolution and then to end the film on that is like, um, yeah, that, that kind of suspense. Um, yeah, it's super enjoyable. I think there's like, one of the ones that stands out for me is like, uh, I think it's the end of I Know You Did Last Summer, the first one, and I think there's like a steamy shower scene or something and you, you think like it's all resolved and then this hand comes out and grabs the protagonist and you're like, because it, it also kind of signals they'll probably make a second.

Speaker 2 (00:37:23):
Yeah, well, that's another big thing. I was gonna say the sequel of it all, you do always need to leave a little bit of doubt, um, so that you can have plausible deniability when you get the team back together for, for the second movie.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:37:36):
'Cause if there is a genre that does follow-ups, it's

Speaker 2 (00:37:40):
Horror

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:37:41):
Of all, of all the genres. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:37:43):
Yeah. Yeah, and we kind of, um, think of that as a modern, um, a modern kind of trope, but it's actually been in horror form for a long, long time. Like, I watched through all the Universal, um, movies or some of, some of the, maybe not all of them, but some of the really big ones. And my Lord, there is a lot of sequels that are doing just about the same thing in just about the same way. But they were, you know, able to make money, so they, they, they continue making them.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:38:09):
Yeah. 'Cause it's a Taylor Swift situation. People are gonna buy the five, six, seven different versions of the album. Why wouldn't you make 'em?

Speaker 2 (00:38:19):
Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I actually think in some ways, I do like, and I do enjoy and find a comfort in that kind of familiarity, you know? So something like a slasher is quite formulaic. Um, and as someone who kind of enjoys patterns and, um, doesn't necessarily always do well with kind of... I mean, this sounds kind of ironic, doesn't really do well when kind of things are outside of that order or that pattern that I'm familiar with. Slashes can actually be really comforting because it's like you know what's gonna happen. And for whatever reason, I enjoy that.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:38:55):
Mm. I relate to that. Yeah. Yeah. And then that's part of what, if 90% of it you predict what's gonna happen, it's quite comforting. You're like going along with the story, but then something unexpected happens that can be a really good jump scare or that could be a really good twist in that film.

Speaker 2 (00:39:13):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So look, it's an interesting theory, um, but it doesn't fully resonate, it doesn't fully resonate with me. Um, the next theory, um, comes from, um, that philosophy lens. So it's from Noel Carroll, and they wrote The Philosophy of Horror or Paradoxes of the Heart, which I think is a beautiful name for a book.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:39:36):
Mm.

Speaker 2 (00:39:38):
A bit maybe what we're talking about there, um, in terms of, you know, this kind of idea that we, we enjoy things that are, that our hearts probably maybe shouldn't in when we think about heart and, and love in a, in a kind of traditional sense. Hmm. So he was, um, writing in 1990, um, and his theory is that people are attracted to horror because the monsters in horror represent a transgression or a violation of our culturally defined rules. So I couldn't resist this because I do love, uh, violation of culturally defined rules, but he was also drawing on one of my favorite anthropologists who, um, is named Mary Douglas, and she wrote about theories of pollution and that taboo, and the idea that what is taboo and what is polluting are things that fall outside the categories that we as cultures produce. The theory there is that we experience pleasure because monsters are taboo or a violation of cultural norms and categories, so they are both fascinating and repellent simultaneously.

Speaker 2 (00:40:44):
Mm.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:40:45):
Yeah, we love to stare, and it's a safe, it's a safe space to, like, really get an eye full and an ear full of something that otherwise, day-to-day, we wouldn't be exposed to.

Speaker 2 (00:40:56):
This kind of idea that monsters are fascinating and repellent at the same time, and they're that kind of violation of norms, um, kind of relates to something which one of my favorite directors, John Carpenter, spoke about. Um, and that was around the idea that w- what we fear is either external, so it's an example of something, the monster is, you know, outside, or it can be an internal horror, so that is the monster is here, they're within us or they're from outside of us. And that's kind of the, the way he thought about two different kinds of horror. And I think that some horror films really play with that in a really interesting way. And I have a very, um, I guess, creatively mocked up, um, image of the thing back there. It's, it's quite different to what the thing actually looked like from John Carpenter's, um, movie, but there was that element in that movie of, like, where is the thing?

Speaker 2 (00:41:55):
Is it here? Is it there? Is it one of us? Is it external to us? And they, he playing around with, uh, that idea a lot in the thing. And for me, it resonated, um, a lot. So I really like Carol's theory, um, that they present in that book.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:42:09):
Yeah, I, I like it too. It feels, if, it feels right. Like, it's the behavioral component of what we were talking about with music and sound. It's like if, it's a little, it's the opposite of what we would expect. It's this taboo, um, something we're not supposed to get pleasure out of or not wanna see happen to people, um, in a context where no one's really getting hurt and you're safe to sit back and enjoy.

Speaker 2 (00:42:40):
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, that, that, um, emphasizing, you know, nobody's actually getting hurt, and I think that's a kind of key part of what, you know, you and I enjoy about horror that maybe some people who don't enjoy a horror don't quite understand.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:42:54):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:42:55):
I love the movie Rocky. I think it's a brilliant movie, but I cannot watch the fight scenes because, like, they're too real. Like, it, they are simulated violence, but it's so, it's in such a realistic context, um, that I just, I just can't watch it.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:43:13):
Holly, if you don't mind me saying, it just kind of feels like it's the art part, right? And so, people can take whatever qualms they take with, you know, trashy horror and where, whether it's art or not, but it's when something is pushed into stylized, right? So you can have, like, extreme violence and, you know, there's, um, maybe directors who don't necessarily need specific shout out by name who, who've done cool stuff, but, you know, play with making something stylized, go- going into black and white instead of one color in very violent scenes. And it's like, oh, okay. Or, um, when it moves away from being ultra realistic and it's into something that's like, maybe a good example is the new Cape Fear. Have you, have you watched the New Cape Fear?

Speaker 2 (00:44:01):
I have not watched the New Cape Fear, no.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:44:03):
Yeah. It's I'm pretty sure it's directed by Martin Scorsese, um, Javier Bad - Javier Badems in it, and Amy Adams. Um, but it, it, it could be ultrarealistic. It could be this stalker situation. Um, I've heard mixed reviews from other people, but I like it because I feel like, Tim and I both loved it, pushes into this really weird stylized where the music is weird, the angle of the cameras is weird, and it's like, that's part of the enjoyment of it, is I don't, there's enough kind of creepy, scary people in the world. That's, that doesn't, that's not horror enjoyment, that's just people being creepers or violent. Um, so yeah, I, I think there's something in that style - stylized aspect.

Speaker 2 (00:44:48):
Yeah. And there's a good sort of craft as well that I, that I very much admire, especially on, you know, I'm a bit of a goal hound, so things that are kind of over the top, you know, I'm thinking, um, Bride of the Reanimator, what else am I thinking? I'm thinking Toxic Avenger, things like that where it's - Yes. The body does not do these things, but it's hilarious that you're showing them like that. Screaming Mad George just passed away, which is very, very sad to hear. Um, but Society is another one where, I mean, that, that one does have some social commentary that is, is quite cutting. Um, but it also has some really wild body, body horror, um, that you c - you just look at and you think, "How did they do that?" You know? Yeah. And that's, that's the enjoyment.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:45:33):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (00:45:35):
Speaking of, you know, enjoying watching these movies, um, our next theory is, um, by Anderson and Claxton. Um, and they actually run the recreational fear lab in, um, a university in Denmark. Their fear lab is open right now. They're kind of emerging, um, theorists in this field. They define fear as a mixed emotional experience of fear and enjoyment. So that's recreational fear for them. It concludes a wide spectrum of kind of playful engagement. So from horror movies like we were talking about, drill seeking as well, but also, you know, just children playing by chasing each other or, you know, um, animals do it too, you know, pretending to fight. Um, all of these things they define as recreational fear. They found, um, a kind of U-shaped relationship between self-reported fear and enjoyment. So for, um, most people, there's this kind of sweet spot or an optimum level of fear, um, where enjoyment is maximized.

Speaker 2 (00:46:44):
So too much fear, um, it's not enjoyable and too little fear, it's also not enjoyable. And their studies are kind of actually based in these kind of haunted house scenarios. So they take a bunch of measurements from people before and after. They, um, complete a haunted house and they, um, ask them some questions about, you know, what they enjoyed, what paths they enjoyed, et cetera. So it's really interesting, I guess, having that kind of lab set up. For sure. Clanton has already wri - also written individually about why horror seduces, um, and he theorizes the horror is a safe space for people to experience high intensity emotions, which is something you alluded to before. Mm-hmm. You know, we have these kinds of, um, safety nets when we know we're just watching something or we know we're just, you know, in a haunted house where nobody's actually really gonna hurt us.

Speaker 2 (00:47:36):
And horror also allows us to consider, um, what we would do in dangerous situations through fictional narrative. So watching a horror movie thinking, "Oh, I definitely, you know, wouldn't have gone upstairs," you know? Every horror movie people sit in the house, people always go upstairs. Why do you not go out the back door? Like, upstairs is the wrong place to go. So to some extent, you get some amount of pleasure from, um, you know, seriously, but also unseriously looking at what people kind of did wrong in these movies, you know, breaking up, um, in terms of, you know, from going from a group to going to individuals, always a bad move, you know, we know Screen told us this. So, um, those are those kinds of theories around recreational fear. Um, it's a play, it's an experimentation, um, and you do experience these high intensity emotions, but in a really safe space.

Speaker 2 (00:48:28):
Mm.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:48:29):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (00:48:30):
The last theory I have to talk to you about today is, um, from a, um, US-based psychologist, um, called Colton Shriver. I apologize if I mispronounce it, mispronounced that name. Um, he writes about morbid curiosity, and he actually has a whole book of morbid curiosity. Um, he defines morbid curiosity about an interest in things that are potentially dangerous, and he categorizes these interests in a kind of similar way to the scale that we spoke about before. Um, you could have an interest in the minds of dangerous people. You could have an interest in physical violence, bodily injuries, and paranormal dangers, and much like the, um, Zuckerman sensation-seeking scale, um, Colton has developed his own morbid curiosity test that you can play with, um, for free on his website. So I did mine. And I came up with a slightly above average morbid curiosity score, but again, my measures were kind of quite high in some aspects and, and, and below average in other aspects.

Speaker 2 (00:49:43):
So I've got a very high kind of interest in the paranormal. Again, something which was not a surprise to me by any means, um, but a very low interest in violence, bodily injuries and the minds of dangerous people. I was kind of fairly on average, but yeah, that, that kind of, um, morbid curiosity about violence is very low for me, um, and I, I love, I love learning about the paranormal. Okay, so I'm - Jazz, I feel like you're taking the test now. I'm taking

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:50:12):
The test now. I, I don't think, you know, I'm not gonna have... I wanna sit and have a conversation with you, but I wanted to bring it up because I'll finish it afterwards. But the first question that I got, "If a head transplant was possible, I would wanna watch the procedure." And it's a six point like it from strongly disagree to strongly agree. Okay. Um, I'm listening. "You had my interest. Now you have my attention." Or the other way around, whatever the quote is.

Speaker 2 (00:50:42):
So Colton's theory is basically, um, that morbid curiosity drives individuals to align about aspects of life that are perceived to be dangerous. I'm quoting here," By learning about the threatening factors associated with death, one can learn to avoid the negative outcomes associated with those factors. Thus, morbid cor - curiosity manifests as a balance between the cost of exposure to morbid content and the perceived benefits to learning about that content.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:51:13):
"Yeah, okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you keep talking about this because I wanna see where you're going with it, but I, I have so many thoughts and questions.

Speaker 2 (00:51:21):
I think it's really interesting here how, um, you can have those kind of benefits of learning about that content, but also the benefits of, um, the biochemical aspects of fear. You know, you get things like adrenaline and you get things like dopamine, and those kind of feel good in your body. Um, and when you don't, and you, when you have those, but you don't actually need to respond to them, it can be quite, you know, euphoric. Um, and that's what I think, um, drives, drives me towards certain, um, certain areas of morbid curiosity. Mm. What are your thoughts, Jazz?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:51:56):
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, like, to add to what you're saying, a part of the fight, flight response is also a natural painkiller, um, and, and, um, uh, like, thickening of blood as well, so that if you're injured while you're trying to run away or while you're fighting, it's evolutionarily adaptive to, to feel less plain - pain through, through that adrenaline. Um, so yeah, I like, I like the way you're framing that of thinking about, like, endorphin here, that excitement, the, the kind of thrill that comes from it. I mean, this is something outside of, yeah, as, like, adjacent to horror, is something that I've always been kinda curious about other people and myself of interest in violent offenders and the fact that we just have so many podcasts, so many Netflix series about, like, honestly, the s - the same key kind of serial killers from the US through the 1970s and 1980s, and people just can't get enough of the content, and visiting, like, visiting locations where crimes took place.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:53:07):
And, like, I, I kind of part find that content, like, you know, I could s - it's unsettling and it's, like, sad and it's vi - it's violence often against women, horror films can, uh, often that as well, but also there is this, like, interest in what's happening in this mind, and Mindhunters and, and the, the kind of FBI studies on serial killers is a big part of that. And then, like, um, you know, there's research, I think, also on why certain women become sexually interested in, um, serial killers. And it's like that, that... I hadn't seen the framing of this kind of theory before, this kind of morbid curiosity test and, and, um, Scrivener's work, so I, I find this really interesting in a bit of a, a highly topical thing of our time. Some of the other theories, it makes sense if I've got high levels of sensation seeking, I'm gonna wanna go out and seek thrills.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:54:02):
Um, but this one is, like, you know, what, what is it about modern society where we're particularly interested or the, the content that is, like, the true crime content that's really disproportionately on this high, high level of violence? I don't have the answer, but this, this is really kind of fascinating.

Speaker 2 (00:54:22):
Yeah, I think I've definitely, you know, since learning about this kind of concept of morbid curiosity, I've definitely, like, used it a bit in my, in my day-to-day language, um, because it does really describe something that, um, comes up a lot and is really relevant to what we, um, to, to how we kind of work, you know, where there is this kind of negative stimuli that we are kind of somewhat more interested in and wanting to look at, so...

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:54:48):
Car accidents. When, when you're on the highway and everybody's slowing down because there's been some car accident, it's like people are really... The, the camera crews I used to talk to who, who covered roadside accidents, um, because of Slow News Day, the news would be about whatever car accident happened that day. And they're like, "The, the biggest risk to us on the job is when we're filming that because the likelihood of a second accident because someone is staring out the window trying to see what happens, like, yeah, h - what does that except morbid curiosity?"

Speaker 2 (00:55:22):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, Colton is also kind of writing, um, you know, and, and researching as we speak, so we're really interested to see, um, more that comes out of, um, his kind of, his kind of work.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:55:38):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (00:55:40):
You just mentioned, um, about the kind of gendered aspect of violence and gendered aspect of horror movies as well. So, um, there is, there is something that I wanted to talk to, um, in terms of what we've gone through, um, and that is about, like, kind of what's missing from these theories. So, um, something you, you might have noticed, um, was that we were mostly talking about, um, in fact, entirely talking about theorists that were men, and most of these men, or pretty much all of these men, but even outside of the figures that I spoke about today, um, work in universities across the US and Europe. Another thing that I noticed is that there was, um, kind of a lack of, um, scholars speaking about experiences of fear from, from a female perspective. And so I thought it might be worth kind of mentioning, um, that limitation of what we're discussing today.

Speaker 2 (00:56:45):
I just wanted to shout out some feminist scholars who have been writing about horror and fear, um, that haven't been mentioned so far. So the first is, uh, Carol Clover, who wrote Men, Women, and Chainsaws. Um, and in her book, she argued that audiences align themselves with the final girls rather than the killers and slashers. And I think that resonated really strongly, and that book often gets quoted, um, because when you look at a horror movie poster, there is often, you know, central to it, um, an act of violence against a woman or a woman in the very leastparious position. So a lot of people who don't kind of watch horror think that's what it is about. But when I watch a horror film, um, and I think when lots of people watch a horror film, it really is about, you know, kind of cheering on that final girl, cheering on the people who kind of survive through it, um, and, and looking at and admiring the, the challenges that they go through.

Speaker 2 (00:57:47):
I think it's also interesting, um, you know, in terms of movie posters aren't usually made by the people who make the movies themselves, so, um, there is an element of, you know, what, what do we think is gonna sell? We're gonna, we think is what's gonna sell is, is this kind of woman in peril. Mm. Barbara Creed is a, um, another, um, author who I really enjoy. Um, she's an Australian professor of cinema studies, and she wrote about the monstrous feminine. So, um, females in horror and, and how femininity is shown, um, and understood as being monstrous, uh, monstrosity. So wrote, she wrote about how women and womanhood are constructed as monsters in horror through, um, things around reproduction, motherhood, and matriarchy. Mm. Jazz, is there any other theories in horror that we haven't spoken about today that you, um, that you might wanna mention?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:58:42):
If you're a listener and you're doing, um, you know, Psych 101 and Psych 102, uh, the, all of kind of what Holly's been talking through here today builds off, uh, a week or a unit that you're gonna do on emotion, and we talk about the James Lang and the Kennan Bard theories, and that's really, like, do we, um, do the physiological response or the stimulus and the physiological response and emotional response happen at the same time, or is it more like we, there's a stimulus that's scary, we perceive it and we go, "Oh, whoa, that's scary. Now I have an emotional response," or do I have an emotional reaction and judge that to be, "Oh, I'm scared because these things are happening." So I think just kind of making that link to these classic emotion theories of Ken and Bard, James Lang, that kind of stuff, um, you'll hear that in 101 and 102, and then when you do a biopsych unit, you'll go probably deep on the bio things that are related to those, um, those theories, and that's kind of how Holly started this episode.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:59:46):
Beyond that, no. I, there, there's nothing kind of standing out to me as, as a gap, which does in no way surprise me, Holly, because I know, I know when you're interested in something, like how, how deep and broad you go, and it's been really fun. It's been really fun to cover these and I like that you'll go deep and explain it and go, "Yeah, but also this is not convincing to me because the studies are there." So let's move on to the next one. It's, it's been quite a fun list to walk through, and I also like that it's been this kind of, um, evolution over time to like current researchers who are working, um, back to earlier in the 1960s. So, uh, acknowledging all the limitations that you call out of mostly men, probably mostly white guys in the same kind of, um, age group probably, you know, the, the older theories, um, and happening in universities, acknowledging those things.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (01:00:45):
I think you've done a good job to get a variety as much as possible. So it's been, it's been a pretty fun journey.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
Yeah, I think you can definitely tell as I'm reading through them which ones are my favorites and which ones I don't find so convincing. Um, but they all are just theories, you know?