Holly Helprin (00:10):
Jaz, do you have any kind of personal reflections on why you enjoy being scared?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:16):
Uh, I'd be really keen as part of this to like, to talk about specific films because I'd gone back, I was sitting here before we started recording before we, we both joined this online meeting and was thinking about what are the films that I've really liked that are horror and what are the things that are horror that I haven't liked and how that's been different at different developmental stages. Um, but more broadly, like, why enjoy, why am I to enjoy being scared? I think for me that like knowing, knowing that I'm not actually a threat, but having that increased heart rate and that I, I quite like jump scares as well. Even to scream at something, like even if it's like a little squeal, you're in, you're in the theater and something shocks you and you gasp or you like make a loud sound, that's not really something that we do in public.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (01:09):
So even that is like a violation or a taboo to like draw attention to yourself. But then to do it collectively, to be in a theater and have other people around who are appreciating and reacting, even if you don't know those people, I think it's that social component I really like. Like I, in my teens would have sat and watched horror by myself. Um, but as I've gotten older and, and as a young kid as well, I used to watch with my siblings and my uncles, but as I've gotten older, um, it's like sitting and like having a reaction with Tim as we watch a horror film. And if it's really good being like, "I think we need to turn the lights on." And just like feeling like a kid, feeling a bit of vulnerability, feeling a bit of excitement. Um, the retribution or like when someone does overcome something, often a woman is like underestimated and turns out to be a badass and actually destroys the monster or the bad guy.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (02:05):
That's pretty cool. Um, but yeah, I think it's that like reaction and feeling the response. It's quite, um, it's this nice feeling to feel that, um, what's a nice way to put this? Like just being in tune with other people in your community. You, you're sitting in a theater, you're having the same reaction, you're either all laughing at something or, or kind of gasping or like letting out a little squeal because something is scary. I, I, I dig that.

Holly Helprin (02:36):
Yeah. Definitely the collective experience is something that's, um, wasn't spoken about in what I saw, which I though was really interesting, but there are so many horror movies that are better with a crowd, you know? Um, and I don't know that all films are like that. I mean, I guess you like seeing, you know, if people like things or not, but given that you can have such immediate and kind of perceivable response to horror, um, it really is a collective activity and, and you do almost go through something together as a group, even if you don't talk to the person before and don't talk to them after, you know? Being in a cinema, I guess is what I'm talking about there. Yeah. Another aspect of horror that, you know, if we're gonna be full, fully honest, um, with ourselves that, um, is of interest to me or one of the reasons why I like it is that it is kind of a bit subversive, it's a little bit naughty.

Holly Helprin (03:30):
Um, it's a bit counter-cultural, it's a bit taboo. And the act of watching horror, enjoying horror puts you in this kind of group, um, of people who have the kind of same kind of knowledge as you say kind of experiences of you. And it's just kind of a bit, a bit outside of the norm. And I, I think I do tend to enjoy those kinds of things, having a shared knowledge and a shared love, obviously, but yeah, also being recognized as maybe a little bit outside, um, is something that I can't, if I'm, you know, fully honest with myself, I do, I do find myself drawn towards.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (04:05):
Yeah. Yeah, nice.

Holly Helprin (04:08):
So we should get to the movies. What, what kind of fears do we enjoy? So, um, just before we talk about movies, it's, you know, we spoke about a few different kinds of fears. I've already said I'm not a big thrill seeker. I don't like those kind of physical bungee jumping, skydiving kinds of things. Um, I'm a little bit hot and cold on true crime. Um, it, it really depends, um, on how the person's presenting it. And, and I love a fraud story - Yes. A lot more than I like f - stories of violence, which I think the stories of violence are the more common ones. But I think fraud can be really interesting because you, because when you're doing, when you're doing a fraud, when you're, when you're doing some kind of subversive activity, some kind of organized activity, there is a thought process behind it, even if it's a bit of a walked though process.

Holly Helprin (05:02):
Um, whereas, you know, we talk about the psychology of, like, murders and things like that, and I think that sometimes it's a bit overstated how much thought, um, and, and particularly intelligence is put into these kinds of things. So you can be a fraudster and, you know, not be that intelligent, I suppose. But one thing that you do tend to need is these kind of social skills, um, and this ability to convince people of things, which is something that I find really fascinating. So I do like those kind of fraud hoaxy kinds of stories in the true crime g- genre. Have you... Was it you

Dr Jaz MacDonald (05:39):
That was talking to me about this at one point and it was like the fear then becomes... It's institutional when it's fraud. You know, like when, and when it's true crime and it's like violence, it's like fear of other people and what might happen to you. But when it's like f - a fraud or on a big scale kind of... Yeah, a big scale fraud, then it's more like, you know, the fear becomes, "Well, can I trust? Can I, can I trust people when I make friends with them? Can I trust, you know, businesses when they tell me this is their model?" Was that you and I talking about that? I don't think it

Holly Helprin (06:15):
Was, but I think that, yeah, it does speak to something around, like, what individuals can do in institutions, you know, what people are willing to do as a collective, um, is definitely something, is something that's interesting. And I think it's worth us thinking about as well of, you know, how are we influenced by those around us and the norms.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (06:32):
And then what would have to happen bef - you know, when you say, like, we, we might enjoy horror because we're putting ourselves in that situation thinking what would we do, then fraud or these, like, white blue collar crimes and, like, whatever else, that's kind of scary because it's like, whoa, this person seemed like probably they started out just really good at their job and then they've done something dodgy and realized they got away with it and then that becomes normal for them. It's kind of like scary in a moral ethical kind of way of like, w- what kind of situation might, could I be put in? Would I, could I ever act like that?

Holly Helprin (07:10):
Yeah. Or could I be the victim of fraud, you know? Could I be convinced by this, by this kind of pitch that somebody's, somebody's giving? Um - For real. Is really of interest too. Yeah.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (07:21):
Yeah.

Holly Helprin (07:22):
Anything else that you enjoy that's a little bit spooky?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (07:26):
Yeah, more broadly than film? What's... Oh, well, I do love a haunted house. I love a haunted, like, train ride. You know, you and I went to Dracula's in the Gold Coast, which is more that, like, burlesque kind of, you know, really campy, fun, comma, uh, comedy kind of horror stuff, right? Um, what else? Oh, I like, I like drops, like, rides where there's, it's a rollercoaster, there's a drop. I've done a bunch of, you know, climbing, um, buildings or bridges where you're s- suspended with a harness, but you can lean over. So I guess I probably am high in sensation seeking in specific ways. Um, but I, I think I, within reason where there's control, I quite like the physiological response and the ability... If I'm really honest, I think I like being able to function in situations like that when sometimes other people can't.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (08:30):
Like I, I kind of pride myself on being able to calm myself and just focus on my breathing and yeah, I don't know, there's something about that that I quite like. It's like, it feels like a pretty manageable level of adversity that I can put myself through and be okay.

Holly Helprin (08:44):
Yeah, that's interesting. And you kind of said camp in there as well in terms of burlesque and maybe that's another aspect of, um, horror that I enjoy, but, um, maybe it's more related to horror films, um, is that opportunity to look at the kind of groups of people and talk to the groups of people and represent groups of people, um, that aren't necessarily always represented in, um, kind of mainstream cinema. Um, there's a lot of isms in horror. There's a lot of racism, sexism, homophobia, um, but there's also, um, a lot of really amazing films made by people who sit within those groups or made by people who are exploring those things. And I think similar to sci-fi, by putting it in, in this kind of symbolic or, um, I guess, surreal context, you are able to look at something from a distance and see the absurdity of, of what we're doing, um, of the kind of discrimination and the bias that we, we have.

Holly Helprin (09:54):
Mm. Um, so that's another, I think a really powerful element of horror, um, as well as other, a few other genres where we can, we can really think about things that we don't necessarily feel comfortable confronting literally.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (10:11):
Mm. Yeah. I, I think that's a really nice point. I like that a lot. It makes me think of, um, is it, uh, is it Jordan Peele?

Holly Helprin (10:22):
Yeah, yeah, Jordan Peele.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (10:24):
Makes me think of Jordan Peele's work and Get Out and, like, yeah, and you're watching it and you're like, "Ooh, deep discomfort." The, the way things are played on and the performances in those films. Um, yeah, interesting, Holly. Nice point. Are you keen or willing to disclose some of the kinds of horror that you've enjoyed and what you don't enjoy so much? Like, I was thinking, I was thinking kind of developmentally of the stuff that I really enjoyed being scared when I was a kid, and it was like, I don't know, if you know the film, Little Monsters, it's like a 1989, like, live action, but a lot of great makeup, and this kid is like Fred Savage and who's the... I forget the other main actor. But it's a kid who's got a monster under his bed, and it actually is pretty spooky, weird, and, like, goes down into this world where there's all these other monsters, and some are good, and some are bad.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (11:26):
Um, I don't know if it holds up. I haven't watched that in about probably 28 years. Um,

Dr Jaz MacDonald (11:36):
But, but that was one that my brothers and I used to really like. Um, and I was a big, big, um, Nickelodeon kid, so I loved Are Your Afraid of the Dark. And the tropes in the, like you said, the predictability of the format. So every episode starts, you know, for the approval of the Midnight Society, like, it, it's got a whole ritual of how a story starts. It's this horror story that starts around a campfire. And love Goosebumps, the show. Didn't, like, honestly liked the choose your own adventure in the books, but mostly I really loved the, the '90s production of the Goosebumps TV shows that as a kid, that was the kind of horror that made me really happy.

Holly Helprin (12:16):
Yeah, that's cool. And I kind of feel like I'm a little bit the opposite. Um, I think a lot of people enjoy horror when they're... Like some people like the kind of, um, horror for kids, um, and some people also really like horror, like it's really associated with, like, being a teenager and sleepovers and things like that. I was actually a real scary cat for a long time. So, um, I enjoyed watching horror movies, you know, with friends at sleepovers. Um, but there was a lot that I just wasn't willing to watch, because I, I knew it was gonna be too scary for me. So, uh, actually, what I did watch a lot of, um, not necessarily when I was young, um, maybe as young as, you know, Little Monsters Nickelodeon, but more, you know, the 15, 16, 17 age range is things like Saw.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (13:04):
Mm.

Holly Helprin (13:05):
Where it's kind of a bit, um... It's not actually particularly scary. It's a horror movie, absolutely, but you only watch it and you're not really, like, scared necessarily because it's such... It's not... The focus isn't on what if this happened to you? Yes. Um, it's, it's more about, you know, this, this depraved person in this kind of, in this, in this fake world, and, you know, what's moral, what's immoral, and then just the creativity of, you know, things like the traps. One of my favorites is definitely... Which speaks a little bit to that, but also to the kind of social themes, um, of what I was alluding to before around what horror can do, is, um, Hellraiser. Hmm. Um, really love the Hellraiser book, really loved the first Hellraiser movie. Um, and there is that element of craft in terms of the body horror, but there's also really strong messaging around, you know, who is considered an outsider, um, and who is kind of accepted by society.

Holly Helprin (14:07):
And, and this kind of perversion, Clive Barker wrote the, um, original book, um, and he was a gay man in a time where, um, there was even more kind of, um, suspicion and judgment than there is today. Um, and people, he saw people as seeing him as a monster, and so he said, or the story is that he kind of saw that judgment and he said, "You know what? I'm gonna create a real, a real monster. I'll show you the monster." Um, and so Hellraiser is really beautiful and it's really well-acted and it's really interesting storyline, but it also has a great author and concepts and ideas and feelings behind it. So that's one that I really enjoy. Kind of like saw it's not scary, just because, like, it only happens to you. The bad things only happen to the people who mess with the lament configurations, so I'm just like, "Well, as long as I don't see, like, a box with, like, this kind of carving on it, I'll be fine, you know?

Holly Helprin (15:13):
That's... I don't have to worry about it." But it does affect me, like, in the body, because there's, there's, there's so much bodily stuff in it, and you can feel it in the body, even if it's not something that you kind of keeps off at night thinking, "Oh, I might, you know, there might be... Uh, Pinhead might be under my bed," you know?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (15:32):
Right. There's, there's a sense of, like, a locus of control. Like, I know if I come across that artifact, don't mess with it, and I'll be fine, compared to the kind of horror where it's, like, unexpectedly this thing is thrust upon people at random. Yeah.

Holly Helprin (15:48):
Another one that I love that stays with me for a long time, another one with, like, class- classics as well is Halloween. Yeah. Um, and it's the kind of movie where I watched it having heard so much about it and wasn't sure whether it was gonna live up to, live up to, live up to its reputation, but it really does just kind of set you in a space where you are just completely engrossed in the story. And I actually found that, um, enjoying the story at the time, afterwards, I was thinking a lot about it, and I actually kind of feel like I did see some of those scenes, and, um, very slight spoilers for Halloween, so apologies if you've seen it, but there is kind of, like, a little bit of a stalking element, and I did feel like I kind of saw flashes of a Mike Meyer-esque figure kind of in these spaces where you see him, you know, like, um, Laurie Strode looks at a window, I think, and sees, uh, um, Michael Myers in, like, the laundry hanging out on the line, the sheets, and, and those kind of scenarios where it's kind of far away and you kind of can't see what you're seeing, um, quite seeing, that happened for a while afterwards, and I think it didn't really...

Holly Helprin (17:02):
Not necessarily, you know, it didn't affect my life negatively, per se, but I though, "Wow, that's really cool. Like, I am... It's affecting how I see things," I suppose.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (17:11):
Yeah. Yeah, because is that what... Him just being a person, and what are we... And voyeuristic, I guess, in that sense of, like, uh, what is an instance where you just might not even know if people are watching you or not, if you're being surveilled? And then that film has some kind of really interesting indoors scenes where you're, like, you see the perspective of, um, Michael in, in, like, in that stalking process, which is pretty creepy.

Holly Helprin (17:43):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And the kind of ideas around you're being put in his shoes, seeing, seeing what he sees, um, that's a really unique aspect of the film and something that, that gets used a lot after the fact.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (17:55):
Yeah. Yeah, it definitely influenced other films, for sure. Are there any other films you're,

Holly Helprin (18:00):
You kind of think and you think that's, that's a good spooky scare? Man, that's, that's the scary fun we enjoy?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (18:07):
Well, through, um, through my teens, I think, like you're saying, through sleepovers, but through, like, hanging out with siblings and going to Video Easy and picking out stuff to watch, because you could get, like, 10 horror films for 10 bucks. Um, and, and it was always like, "Well, who can handle, who can handle the most and who can handle what?" It was definitely, like, that competitive aspect. Um, I just loved slasher films. Uh, I probably... I don't really enjoy them the way that I did, and I think part of that is about going on and doing research about violence against women, but I really loved, like, screen films. I really loved, um, I Know You did Last Summer. I like the kind of, this... It's kind of a silliness. There's, there's kind of, like, a silliness, more so in I know what you did last summer, where you're just like, "What?" Or some of the kills in it, and you're like, "This guy, no, no, but it's fun." Um, and still to this day, like, respect Neve Campbell, because I'm like, "Sydney's a badass, like, love, love." Um, as an adult and kind of more recently, some, some things that I though were honorable mentions were, um, the TV series, Haunting of Hill House, that...

Dr Jaz MacDonald (19:26):
I mean, the book, the book is so kind of literary and densely written and super interesting, but the show, just the eerie changing, you know, that what, what you're watching in the story can be creepy, but paying attention to what's happening in the background is that unsettling weigh, did that thing just move, like, in, in mention? That's, that's very cool. Um, I really liked, really recently, Widow's Bay.

Holly Helprin (19:55):
Mm. Uh - Yeah.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (19:56):
And I think I dug that a lot because I thought it was gonna be every week would be a different monster kinda situation, like, Buffy or Supernatural, and it did that for a couple of episodes, but then turned into something completely different, and they play on some of the tropes. Like, there is the Mike Myers kinda character who comes after Patricia for a whole episode, and she's running away from him, but she's just, like, she's just kinda, like, frustrated and ex- exasperated with the fact that he...

Dr Jaz MacDonald (20:25):
No matter what she does to him, he doesn't die. She doesn't get scared, uh, she's just like, "What the hell?" And, and runs into this room where, into this house where these women don't believe she's being pursued by this guy. And, and in the end, she's just like, "Well, fine, he's in the house, he's your problem," and just runs off, like... Oh, I, I really enjoyed that. And there's also an episode with a creepy clown. Um, The Monkey that came out a couple years ago.

Holly Helprin (20:49):
Yes. Yeah.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (20:51):
Yeah. I loved The Extreme Kills and the comedy in it. It, it... That's a real sweet spot of enjoyableness for me, like, high, high violence, that's not uber realistic, but, like, high impact violence with some comedy. Ah, love it. Yeah.

Holly Helprin (21:08):
Yeah. That's definitely Widow's Bay, that's definitely The Monkey. And that's also... I mean, people talk about... And, and I don't know, in terms of similarities on a kind of biological brain level, but there is some, some kind of connection between being funny and, and making people laugh, and making people scared. Um, and those two don't really seem like they would match, but they do match so well, both in terms of in films, but also filmmakers, um, often, uh - Good point. Great comedians, um, but also, um, are really good at scaring people, you know? We've got, yeah, The Monkey quite recently. Um, but then also, you know, like, Obsession, um, from, from someone who is, you know, part a comedian and, and partly, um, a horror filmmaker.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (21:58):
Obsession. What, that's on my list. There's one other, but Obsession is on my list. I think we spoke shortly after we'd both seen Obsession, and there's so much to like about that film. I think it's the, again, the social reactions of people in the room, because in some horror films you're watching and you're reacting, you're socially judging what's happening, but there's that party scene where I f... Is it Nikki? I think her name's Nikki. He takes Nikki to this party that the best friend doesn't want her to be at, and she does really extreme, really creepy things. And people are just, like, com - just completely spun out by what's happening. Um, and it, it kinda melds humor, as you say, and in a really interesting way. And sometimes it's just so shocking that it's funny. It's like, that's a little Freudian. That's like, I have no way to, to respond to this except to laugh because it's such an extreme, potentially stressful situation.

Holly Helprin (22:58):
Yeah. And what's your, what's your last film?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (23:02):
My last one is actually one that I found creepy, scary. I still liked it, but it's creepy. Um, and I'm pretty sure it's an Australian film. Talk to me.

Holly Helprin (23:11):
Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Another comedy, a comedy, comedy horror kind of filmmaker.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (23:18):
And when, when the poster, like, when I saw the cover and the posters for it, I was like, "I'm never gonna watch this. This looks low budget. It doesn't look like it's gonna be interesting." I saw a graphic of the hand that they hold in the film. And I was like, "Yeah, I'm, I'm not gonna watch this." I can't remember who convinced me it was gonna be worthwhile. It was probably one of my brothers, Bryce. He really loves horror filming, horror films and gives me lots of recommendations. Um, but I watched it and I was like, "Is this maybe one of the best horror films ever?" Like, it was so, so good. I love it. And it's pretty much universally one. When I meet people who love horror and, and I say, "Talk to me," they're like, "Ah, shut up. It's great. It's great."

Holly Helprin (24:04):
Yeah. And Aussie filmmakers as well is obviously, we love that.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (24:08):
100%. Yeah. What about you? Any other films you wanna mention that are kinda good, scary?

Holly Helprin (24:15):
Um, I love a lot of kind of, uh, class- classic films. They... I watch them with my mom. Um, she's not into horror films. She's, she's really scared quite easily. But, um, ones that she saw, you know, um, as a child kind of have a nostalgic factor for her. So we watch quite a few kind of classic horror films, things like Carnival of the Souls. I've got a Creature from the Black Lagoon poster behind me that's a Universal film, The Thing from All Over the World, all of these kinds of ones where you kinda see a lot of experimentation with filmmaking and, and people who don't quite know what they're doing just yet. So there's a lot of unusualness in, in the filmmaking, and there's, there is an element of kind of just throwing things together and seeing what happens that I, that I quite like.

Holly Helprin (25:07):
In terms of horror films that are maybe a little bit too scary for me, um, speaking of the kinda horror filmmakers, um, I think a lot of people, um, a lot of Australians, when you ask them, you know, what's kinda scary, um, they'll kinda list off, you know, some of the classic kinda things that are scary, maybe like, you know, like clowns or heights or whatever else. But a big thing that for me personally, and I think for other people who live in the kind of environment that we do, is just the open expanse. That is something that really scares me. The idea that there's no one for, you know, hours and hours drive one way and hours and hours drive for the next way is quite terrifying. Yeah, that, that's really, that's something that, um, I do find I would avoid movies that have those kind of themes, because I know, one, I know it's scary to me, but also I know I'm gonna be in those situations, right?

Holly Helprin (26:00):
I know I'm gonna be driving down a road where there isn't anyone around, you know, for kilometers and kilometers and kilometers. So that's something that I genuinely find quite scary in a not so fun way. What do you, what do you think about that? As a girl from the country, actually.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (26:19):
Yeah, and then I identify as like a country kid, but I mean, I also, I always lived, like, in a town.

Holly Helprin (26:25):
Yeah,

Dr Jaz MacDonald (26:26):
Yeah. But, but obviously, you know, also having been in that situation and will be in that situation again is really interesting because I, I guess when it comes to being out in expanse and, and driving, I really love it, but within reason, like, if I know there's not gonna be anything for another 12 or 15 hours, that, that would probably freak me out. But no one for, like, a couple of hundred Ks and just being in the middle of nowhere, um, especially through the day, I, I love wide open spaces, but put that underwater and have open expanse and nothing or, like, a drop-off, that actually really freaks me out.

Holly Helprin (27:08):
That, like - Yeah. N-

Dr Jaz MacDonald (27:10):
Nothingness for an indeterminate amount of space, that makes me feel really small and actually freaks me out. So is it that kind of feeling for you, uh, talking, like, in the middle of nowhere, or is it kind of a thing like The Deliverance where what you're afraid of is, like, creepy people who don't abide by, you know, social rules and now you're, you're in their, in their expense and they're, they've got a home ground advantage. Is it, is it the people part or is it, it's the physical isolation part?

Holly Helprin (27:44):
I think it's the physical isolation part. You know, I am very much a singal. I find comfort in having people around me, even if these people aren't necessarily, you know, um, my friends kind of thing, even if they're not people I know. There is just an aunt of comfort in, in being, in being with other people. And, and I think as well, I'm not cut out for the kind of experiences where you have to be really prepared, you know, the, the, the not seeing, you know, not having a gas station or a, a petrol station for two or three days, I just don't... Or, you know, having to, I don't know, injuring yourself and not being able to go and get it fixed to hospital, things like that, that's, that's the kind of thing that, um, that scares me rather than the people themselves.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (28:35):
Mm.

Holly Helprin (28:36):
It's, yeah, it's really that, that isolation. Um, and I'm also terrible at directions, so that doesn't help either. There's no landmarks, like, Australia's so flat, um, where really, yeah, I could, um, I could really easily get lost. Mm. Yeah. Another one that I think for me is, um, quite scary and can be a bit too scary. Um, well, originally, I would've said it was dolls, but I actually think it's a subversion of kind of innocence and things are associated with innocence. So even something like, this is so silly, and you might have no idea what I'm talking about, like, but, um, Courage the, the Cowardly Dog -

Dr Jaz MacDonald (29:19):
I know the show. Cartoon Network. I like this.

Holly Helprin (29:24):
Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's, for whatever reason, like, I just do find it really freaky because it's, like, this mode that I love and that I associate with childhood, but it has this kind of dark edge that I'm really quite uncomfortable with. Um, and I think that's a similar thing for dolls, um, as well as other things, um, around, like, you know, kind of, I guess, like, creepy childhood shows. There's been a few movies around that lately, you know, like, obviously, I see the TV glow around a show that's, um, you saw as a kid and And had that freaky element, even though it also had this kind of poppy, friendly ele- element. Mm. So those are the two kind of categories of fear in movies that, that really do, that really can be quite scary for me and, and can, and become, can become not fun scary.

Holly Helprin (30:19):
Mm.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (30:20):
That, that, that's kind of interesting. I think that links with something that I've, I find pretty creepy in film. And if you think of, like, an example might be, um, it, it as a film is that when the adults in a kid's life, like the, when the protagonist is a, is a kid and the adults in a kid's life are not safe, like the, this, you know, other kids are pretty awful, the adults are pretty awful. And I, I think this is kind of the thing encouraged the cowardly dog as well, because it's meant to be, I don't know, I think it's meant to be like a little quirky, creepy fun, but it's, it is actually kind of unsettling because courage is this kind of cute, beautiful dog.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (31:07):
Yeah. He's this cute character, but he, his caretakers are these old, this old couple who are like, are actually like really kind of kooky and weird, but like they don't really care about his wellbeing. And so that is pretty unsettling. It's like this, um, challenging what we should grow up with, but not all of us do, but we should grow up with, uh, the world can be scary, but I've got these caretakers who will look after me and no matter what, they'll have my back and help me interpret the world. And when that's not there, it's like, oh, that's, that's pretty deeply unsettling.

Holly Helprin (31:42):
Mm. Yeah.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (31:43):
And I, some female and female relational violence stuff, as in like that bullying and isolating, that stuff I find really creepy, like, and I think they do that really well in Widow's Bay where Patricia is kind of treated as this other in the joke. Um, and all she wants to do is fit in. Like I, those are things that I, I f - I find pretty unsettling. Throwing back to when I was a kid, I was, I was actually YouTubing some of the video parts that really freaked me out as a kid. And one was Evil Dead too. And there's what I always imagined or called the witch in the cellar. It's like Henrietta, I think is the character and she would sing Mom is gonna buy You a Mockingbird. And that freaked me out. Like that burnt into my, the lizard part of my brain and scared me for a long time.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (32:33):
And I was just watching the clip and I'm like, "This is so ridiculous."

Holly Helprin (32:36):

Dr Jaz MacDonald (32:37):
This is like so not scary at all and hilarious. But at the time, it was terrifying. Um, the theme music for X-Files when I was a kid, like my uncle lived with us and he would listen to it. He was a teenager at the time and that, that freaked me out. But obviously as an adult went on and watched it and was like, "This is an incredible series." Um, and Hereditary,

Holly Helprin (33:04):
Hereditary

Dr Jaz MacDonald (33:05):
Freaked me out, especially like what happens to the daughter, not the daughter that, well, the, the daughter, but the sister. Um, the unex - there was something really unexpected about it and how it kept haunting the brother and impacting him psychologically. Um - Now that really stuck with me where I was like, "Oh, no." It, it's creepy and I appreciate the film, but I didn't enjoy the creepiness of that film, if that makes sense.

Holly Helprin (33:33):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think again, in Hereditary, it's there's some element of what we spoke about with Courage the Cowardly Dog and even like Widow's Bay of like telling someone there is something not right and them not listening to you and not taking you seriously. That, that's surely that's a universal kind of fear that we have, um, a lot of us at the very least have. Um, I'd like to close on a film. Um, and I haven't mentioned this to you, so I'm not sure how, how you're gonna feel about it, but it kind of brings together quite a few of the themes that we've spoken about today. Suspense. Okay, let's wait. Suspense. Um, it's Carrie. Carrie. Okay. Um, yeah, yeah. Both the book and, and the film, um, absolutely love. A few things that I love about it, it does have that kind of like teenage isolation in it as being an outsider and not being in the in group and not being safe because you're not in the in group.

Holly Helprin (34:31):
Mm. Um, it does have that kind of obviously parental aspect of, you know, an unsafe household, an unsafe figure who is the one who was meant to be taking care of you. And another thing I think about Carrie, um, and the film that Brian De Palma made is, um, it, it's such an interesting film in the way that it, and in such an interesting movie in the way that it does come from a male lens. So Stephen King is obviously male, um, and he didn't grow up as a teen girl. Um, and what I've heard is that his wife actually helped him a lot with those kinds of scenes around what it's like to be a teenage girl. Um, and I think that collaboration really added to the book. Um, and then we have Brian De Palma taking on the, um, taking on the film.

Holly Helprin (35:22):
And he is, I don't, I love the film, but I, I don't, I think I love Sissy Spacek. I don't know whether I actually love the filmmaking of Brian DePalma, particularly because he, he is a self-proclaimed voyeurist. I guess I wanted to leave it as I feel that Carrie is a very interesting story that has a lot of things that scare us. It has a lot of things that resonate with lots of different people. Mm. And, um, I would love to see it be made in lots of different ways. Mm. I think it's right for somebody who's really creative to bring in a diverse kind of perspectives into what the story can mean.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (36:01):
Oh, that's cool. That, that, I kind of know, I kind of know Carrie more so from being interested in Stephen King, but I actually haven't read it and I haven't seen it. So my call to action after this is I'm gonna, I'll watch the film. Um, I'm, I'm currently reading The Shining, so I'm, I won't read two Stephen King books at the same time. I'll put it on the list for later. Um, that's super interesting. Cool. That's, that's like a cool next step, check this out. Think about the different theories that we've talked about and the different kind of social, the social isolation from people, meaning you lose that safety, lose that protection is, is super interesting.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (36:45):
Um, Holly, I've had a blast. I've really enjoyed this. Um, thank you for being such an interesting human who, um, you, I, I like how deeply you think about things and I like how, um, you take this kind of, uh, interesting humans and soc- society and you apply that really effortlessly to, um, kind of popular culture. Uh, it, it, it makes being friends with you and getting to have conversations with you really fun. So I appreciate you coming on, creating this, um, special episode with me and going deep on this, uh, topic that is kind of a, a passion for both of us. Um, is there any kind of s - um, spirit or mention you wanna do for other stuff that you're working on or what might be coming up here in the future or...

Holly Helprin (37:38):
Personally, I guess I would just say, you know, go to your local cinema, go to your local film festival, um, and have a happy Halloween.

Jaz:
Hey there folks. Thanks again for tuning in for this episode of Psych Attack, the Halloween special 2026. This is Jaz. Uh, I want to share a little extra tidbit with you within this episode. Uh, Dr. Will Dobud is a regular on Psych Attack and a good friend and colleague of mine and actually has, uh, co-written a few research pieces with Holly and myself. Uh, Will found out that we were creating this episode and we got to talking about the stuff that Will finds spooky and fun when it comes to being scared. Uh, and so I asked Will to create a short video to share the spooky fun things or a spooky fun thing, um, that has meant a lot to him and he has created quite a treat of a, of a snippet, um, video for you. So enjoy.

Dr Will Dobud :
Hello. My name is Will Dobud and I just wanna talk briefly about Halloween. Now, in 2005, I started working at an outpatient program in Maryland, uh, just outside of Washington DC where I grew up. And we would partner with a organization providing outdoor services, like summer camps, outdoor ed stuff. They were called Calleva. And, um, one of the things Kaleva has been doing for I think over 30 years now is for the whole month of October, they actually run a haunted forest called Markoff's Haunted Forest. And this attracts over 30,000 people per year. And the proceeds go to Kaleva and running outdoor programs, things like that. And the setup of it is just remarkable. It is something I think everybody should see because it's a total entertainment and community event. Um, sometimes I haven't been in a few years since I've been in Australia, but, um, you know, it's not expensive.

Dr Will Dobud :
You sign your waiver, you park on a, on a big farm, a big open paddock. And, um, you walk into this area that has, uh, lights, people and characters going around. You can buy food, uh, a non-alcoholic beverage, uh, and you can pay for different things. The, the, the, the main attraction is this trail, which is a few kilometers long through the woods. Um, that's the haunted forest. And, um, it is, uh, actually scary. There are people with chainsaws, um, coming after you. There's clowns. There's, uh, uh, broken down stuff that people will scare you from. Um, but when you're in sort of, I think of it like a lobby, there's this area where you, you buy your ticket, you walk in and, uh, you sit around till they call your, your, your number so you can go through the trail. And so while you're there, like I said, bonfires and things to do.

Dr Will Dobud :
There's one time when they had people dressed up like zombies and you could buy a ticket and shoot the zombies with paintball guns as they came at you. Um, there was also a haunted bus, which was kind of like a maze inside, uh, a renovated school bus that got pitch black and you'd bump into a scary monster of some kind. Um, but I think the really cool thing is I, and I remember this bringing my kids, I mean, they would probably be seven or eight at the time when I brought them to the haunted forest. I said, "This is so fun." And it really scared them. And I think back to, "This is actually really scary if this is not something that you've grown up with." So, um, I just wanted to share that i- in, especially where I come from, uh, in Maryland that, um, when we think of fear, um, and there's some research to back this up that, that sometimes being scared together can actually increase our connection.

Dr Will Dobud:
And so Halloween, especially where I grew up in Maryland, was such a big deal when it came to trick or treating and, uh, things like that. Um, so, uh, the, the haunted forest always has a special part in, uh, in, in my life, uh, both professionally and, uh, personally and with my family. And, uh, I'm excited that I'm going home this October and I'm going to go to the haunted forest as well. So, uh, hopefully all of you have a very spooky Halloween.