Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:10):
Hey there folks. Welcome to Psych Attack. I'm Dr. Jaz MacDonald. Today I'm really excited I'm catching up with Dominique Barker and we are gonna do a deep dive on project management. Dom has a wealth of experience in leadership and in project management and you know, I don't think you're ever too old to have someone to look up to. And when I grow up I wanna be just like Dom. Dom, thanks for joining me.

Dominique Barker (00:34):
Great to be here. Jaz and absolutely no pressure after that intro. Thank you. ,

Dr Jaz MacDonald (00:39):
Could you share a little bit of your origin story when it comes to leadership and project management? I'm gonna leave that open-ended for you to fill the gaps.

Dominique Barker (00:47):
So I have definitely had a bit of a wayward journey into to project management and the career that I'm in now. So for my undergraduate degree, way back in, I finished it in 2007. I actually studied public relations and journalism and I started off my career as a, um, magazine journalist in Auckland, which was super fun. My graduate role was as an editorial assistant. Uh, and it was a, a really fun job. I really loved it. It was a great team. Um, the issue with magazines though is that if you make a mistake ever, it's published, um, times how many the print runners, so that was quite stressful. , um, you can't change it. And so when I moved to Australia in 2010, I thought, hmm, I don't know if magazines are gonna be on the up and up. I would probably like to change career paths.

Dominique Barker (01:33):
So I ended up landing a job at a web agency, um, in Melbourne and I knew nothing about websites, servers, anything to do with project management. And I worked there for three and a half years and really got to cut my teeth in web and worked on I think over 40 web website projects. And then also had an account management function as well. So that was my first intro into like waterfall style project management, which we were, were doing. And, and Agile was sort of starting to become commonplace back then. And we sort of introduced it a little bit at the agency, which was fun. And then I moved into the university sector where I continued on with the IT and the web component. Um, at Deakin University I also did a little bit of AI and, and voice biometrics there in the mid two thousands.

Dominique Barker (02:19):
So 2015 and then I decided, oh I really, I really like this IT thing. You know, after about five or six years of the industry really liked project management. I was at Deacon at the time and I ended up studying my masters in it and I actually did a chat bot deception, awesome topic, studying bot ethics before AI was really as big as it is now. Then I moved into RMIT university where I was running the online learning and operations technologies during the pandemic for around 90,000 students. So that was absolutely huge. It was project management on steroids, it was standing up new teams, it was delivering work quickly in, in critical environments, putting those skills to the test and really maxing out on it. And then that brings me to my current role as the, the Chief Information officer at the Australian Institute of Family Studies where we have worked in on rolling out digitally transformative project management across the whole agency through different tools, processes, and ways of working. And we've had some really innovative discoveries and it's great to see what the institute has come up with. So really enjoying that as well.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (03:28):
I think that's even more than I knew about you dump, which is exciting. Like it's, it's always fun to hear people's origin stories in the transferable skills that they bring along. Like I, I think I've always been impressed with your communication skills and then surprise, surprise, this is like where you started your professional career. So that's pretty cool. A term that might be nice to unpack a little bit, waterfall approach to projects management. Yeah,

Dominique Barker (03:52):
So I think, um, websites when we first started building and it would often be like a fee for service, so many of you would be familiar with the waterfall style of project management, which is you upfront work out your scope of work, you provide a fixed cost for that work, and then you deliver to the scope that can be quite good in terms of being sure about what you're delivering. The client obviously knows how much they're paying and what they're getting. Um, but as we know, and this has become even more true since I started out in the industry, particularly in the IT and web space, it's just moving so quickly and the technologies are changing so much. It's often not a very practical way to deliver projects in a web. And it sense it can be if you are doing quite a cookie cutter solution and you know exactly what you're delivering, but clients, uh, if they haven't done websites before or they haven't done it a lot, they often don't actually know what they're buying.

Dominique Barker (04:45):
So having a little bit of flexibility can be helpful. So of course you can change the scope and you can add on and renegotiate, but those processes, they can be quite rigid and inflexible. So the waterfall style does suit some of those like where you know how much you're spending, you know what you're delivering, it works really well. But in other contexts where not really sure on the scope you might wanna change partway through it can actually become difficult to actually agree on and cause a bit of friction within the project. If you're not really clear on that. From, from the upfront side of things, broadly

Dr Jaz MacDonald (05:19):
Speaking, across your career, I wonder what you can share around how to implement real change and then how to make it stick.

Dominique Barker (05:28):
I think one of the, the biggest things that I've learned is that when you're making change and especially institutional or or large scale change, is you really wanna find those early adopters who are those people around you or within the organization that are really excited by the change or are are already kind of partway there that you don't need to convince. So getting those people and really helping them to form a community of practice or or a champions group can be really helpful to build momentum for the change. And that means that as a single person, you are not feeling very overburdened by having to do all of that change work yourself. The pitfalls that can often happen in change is that upfront people might actually spend a lot of time on the detractors early on and that can actually take up a lot of energy and move you away from your, um, your core focus. But instead, if you really focus on building that community of practice, building that champions group, they will actually go out and, um, establish those pockets of excellence and help you to drag in other people. So that is really good in terms of momentum building when you're doing large scale change.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (06:36):
That makes me wonder about the balance of hearing the, the detr voices and those champion voices. Do you have any kind of tips or insights around that?

Dominique Barker (06:44):
Well, you're always gonna have the detractors and one of the ways of thinking that I have developed over time, and especially with the, the large scale adventive AI has been around quantum thinking. So, you know, going into a, a big change or body of work that you are going to have detractors. And so it's really important that as a human and AI can't do this and it's an important distinction to make, that you are able to hold multiple perspectives of different types of thinking or, um, adversity that you're gonna face before you actually go into the change. So I like to, um, before I'm communicating changes or understanding the socialization and change profile of what I'm doing, think about who I'm speaking to. So how are people gonna feel about this? Where they, where is their fear sitting? And so that means that if you've already considered your detractors or your champions or and all of the conversations in between and you're holding those states, you're in a much better spot to walk into those conversations.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (07:46):
Mm. What does that look like, quantum thinking, I guess, um, any kind of strategies or, or description of how to, how to do that in a practical sense? 'cause it, it's sounds really important.

Dominique Barker (07:57):
So I think quantum thinking is absolutely linked to quantum physics where you're kind of stateless, you're not holding anything in particular but you're just kind of ready to accept, um, multiple types of thinking that comes from anywhere. So a good example is if you're going to say pitch in like a new technical solution or a new way of doing things or a new framework that you, you know, who you are, you are speaking to. So I'm going into the room, I know this person is gonna come with these biases, this person is gonna come with this bias. How am I actually starting to consider what they're gonna say, dial ideologically, how is this going to play out? And so it's considering like all of, and this is gonna sound quite technical, but I think it's fine for this audience that all of the different permutations that you're gonna run through from all of the different people in the room, and if you can answer that, that's gonna set you in really good stead to get your change over the line or your, your message over the line. So it's being able to hold that in a way that is not fixed, that it's really fluid, you're really fluid and transcendent in the way that you're thinking. Um, and again, this is where I double down and say that AI has made us more human because these are the parts of us that we can develop really well in our leadership roles in terms of the thinking and the way that we approach things.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (09:15):
Is it like a bit of a Schrodinger Schrodinger's box kind of a situation like whatever change you're coming in with is like simultaneously um, feasible and not feasible based on the information that that you're getting from the group of people in the room or, or the key stakeholders in the house?

Dominique Barker (09:32):
It's exactly that. It's like both can be true, um, and everything else in between, right? You should start from the lens of I'm going to have detractors in this, but almost putting them in a box and going, yep, I'm ready to respond to the detractors, um, but I'm also gonna focus on this momentum in this pool that's really gonna bring us along on the journey. So yeah, it's an interesting one.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (09:53):
And then what you can pull from the key messages or concerns from the detractors to evolve the vision or improve where you're going with the project.

Dominique Barker (10:02):
That's right. And allay some of those fears, myth busting. Do you take some of that narrative and actually use it powerfully to develop FAQs or create a more robust suite of some of the materials that you're doing? So there's many ways that you can take it, but it's using that I think in a productive way. So you're thinking about it logically and taking the emotion out of it and how am I actually going to shape the materials or the things that I'm doing to, to help this group.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (10:31):
I'm wondering about the people component of this and like the workplace dynamics. I wonder if you think it is more or less challenging to, to go through this process as quantum thinking and implementing change and and working towards change, sticking when you know folks in the room really well compared to when you don't, like let's preface this with like, you don't go into a leadership position in a new organization and try to change things straight away. That's like leadership one on 1 0 1 in in absolutely in lots of um, resources, right? But I do wonder, I guess about the level of size of the organization, the level of to which you already feel comfortable or know people and the chance for surprise of like thinking a risk might be of thinking that you know, how certain people will respond and the importance of I guess quantum thinking even with folks that you know really well, they might surprise you or have a take on something that's quite different.

Dominique Barker (11:26):
I would assume that if you know them really well and you've, you've got a good relationship with them, that you're going to have an undercurrent of trust there. Which means that even if you do have a difference of opinion, that you can come back from it really quickly. So that I'm less worried about, like I feel like if, you know, like especially in tech teams, it's very normal and we try to keep our structures quite flat. So there is an opportunity to challenge the thinking because you can have quite specialized skill sets within technology and they will all bring a slightly different view. And so I actually kind of encourage that level of rigor and interrogation in the way that we are doing things. I like it because I think you get a better outcome ultimately if you don't have that. And I am going to use the pandemic where there are situations where you just don't have a choice in terms of you're going to have, like, this all sounds great, but there are going to be situations where you're gonna have a global pandemic or maybe you've got a cyber attack.

Dominique Barker (12:24):
I'm not sure that there could be any multitude of variables that that kind of rear their ugly head in situations. So in those situations you do have to trust the people around you to come to the party and, and and you know, put their, put their armor on and, and um, just, just muck in and get it done. And so in those types of scenarios where you don't know people but you are working towards a common goal and you know you've got all of these students online and gotta get through that, you can kind of just put some clarity around what the goals are and explain that it's hard and we are just gonna have to get this done. So there absolutely are situations like that where it's very, very messy, very difficult and you don't know what's going to go wrong 'cause you haven't done it before. I think what you're hearing here, Ja, is probably the common theme of trust is you start from a hundred percent trust no matter what. So if you've got the trust already there, you've probably got a better platform to have those, you know, interrogating disagreements, but if you don't have the trust, you don't have the relationship do it anyway and and see how it pans out. So I think the answer is almost like still the same and you know, you might actually see people at their best and their worst and that builds trust really quickly.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (13:38):
I think it's a valuable reflection to have that even if you don't know folks and you're thrown into a really ugly situation, you're gonna learn about each other real quick. , you form that relationship really fast.

Dominique Barker (13:50):
Yep. And some of the time people will just say, look, I just can't do this, it's not for me. Um, and that's okay as well. There are limits, and I'm thinking back to the pandemic and some of the difficulties that played out there in the teams and how, and how hard it was to be pushing systems to their limits where you've suddenly got, you know, thousands of people online, you are having, you know, budget slashed all sorts of things and and just saying, look, we've, you know, we've gotta do it. There's no one else to do it. We are here, we've gotta get it done. So that, that is really challenging and those like emergency situations

Dr Jaz MacDonald (14:23):
That makes me think of something that you have opinions on that I'd really like to hear, which is failing fast and failing forward.

Dominique Barker (14:32):
So failure is probably the most valuable part of leadership and being successful. And so it's failing fast, I think was, it was move fast and break things, which was a, a term that was, or or a cultural, um, norm at Facebook. I think it's kind of come out of there pretty commonplace in, in tech these days to fail fast. And what that means is that you're kind of, you're out there to break stuff and then you're rebuilding the system in an anti-fragile way so that it's, it's stronger. Right. So this kind of ties back to what I was saying earlier about having people challenge you and um, challenge the thinking all the time because it kind of plays into that. So you are picking up like, is this gonna fail? Why, what do we need to do? Or what have I learned from in the past?

Dominique Barker (15:19):
And really clear role clarity. Like do people know what their role is in this failure? And also creating a safe space for failure as well. So if you're innovating, failure is kind of part of that. If we get it wrong and harking back to my mag magazine days, it's okay, it's technology, we can just change it so it doesn't matter is that you just kind of like, iteration is just really another word for failing and changing. We're failing and changing, we're failing and changing and failure is probably too strong a word, but it's, you are kind of picking up on those like small errors or making changes. Those failures are always what I go to first to go, oh gosh, I've done that before and that was terrible, I'm not gonna do that again. Or, oh, I've seen this before and I know what could happen so I'm going to avoid doing X, Y, Z.

Dominique Barker (16:08):
So taking those learnings into the future is important. And when I think of the failures, they're, they're not really so much around like technology implementations, they're more around how I've managed people or relationships or how I've kind of gone about passing on messages or bringing people on board, like trying to force people too quickly, not engaging with them early enough or not being clear to team members what their role is in a project and then getting confused and that creates friction. So getting those right is really important in terms of failure. But yes, the failure mostly has always been, yeah, like working through those cultural norms and understanding that, 'cause if your people are empowered and have agency and know what they're supposed to be doing, that's gonna set them in really good stead for success

Dr Jaz MacDonald (16:56):
For sure. Changing that cultural aspect, a big influence of culture and how, how people will approach failure, how they'll approach an upcoming project is, you know, the leadership in an organization. So I like maybe we should unpack a little bit the role of executives or senior leaders and getting that kind of sponsorship.

Dominique Barker (17:15):
Yes, and I have had some great leaders, so I have many good examples that I can point to. Um, and you, as you go through your leadership journey, you'll, you'll start to take a little bit from each leader you work with. Oh, I really like that part. I really like that part. So you can start to develop your own leadership identity. You have to feel like your work is valued as well. So is your work valuable? Are you connected to the overall vision of what we are doing? Is everybody clear on that vision? So if you're a leader, you need to, your team needs to know where they're going and why and they need to know what their role is in getting there, right? So it's about like, this is where we are going, your role is this and it's really important because of X, Y, Z and also you're going to be interfacing with these other roles and that relationship is really important because of X, Y, Z.

Dominique Barker (18:06):
So you have to step out of people's way. Like that's important, but you've gotta give them kind of the roadmap and the clarity and you've gotta be able to steer them. So you still have to lead, but you have to be really clear on what you're leading and where and where you're saying, Hey, you're the expert on this. I really need you to tell me what's gonna happen with the cybersecurity profile because you are the expert. What do you think? So you, you're giving people space and time to step into their expertise and I have absolutely had that and I have had also very good and timely feedback that has been very useful and feedback like, ah, like, like very nuanced feedback where you'd wanna develop like pull back on this, like pull back a little bit here or lean in a bit more here.

Dominique Barker (18:53):
Or I liked how you were really forthright there that was really needed. So kind of really nuanced and timely feedback. And you'll get more of that as you go through your leadership journey if you have good leaders where they're really willing to give you that feedback. And feedback is hard to take. I will admit that I still find it difficult, but I think I handle it well because I know that as a leader it's hard to give feedback and that that a leader wouldn't be giving me feedback unless they were really invested in my development. So I always take it in the spirit that it's given. So, so that's an important thing as well.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (19:29):
That's so true. And not, not generally what we think about when we get feedback. It's like, uh, defense or you've missed the point, like that's not what you're trying to do. And then if you step back and go, oh yeah, okay, I'm getting that feedback for a reason. Maybe I wasn't as clear, maybe this perspective. Um, that that's, I feel like sometimes where the conversation sometimes ends about feedback. So thinking about the, the fact that it is actually really hard to give and if you didn't care about a project or about a person who was reporting to you, you, you just wouldn't you just wouldn't bother having those hard conversations,

Dominique Barker (20:07):
Feeling like those uncomfortable feelings that you just described when you get feedback is totally normal. So like of course you're gonna have this like instant reaction where you're like, oh, I'm getting that is so normal and it won't go away. So it's just leaning to, it's learning to just sit with that uncomfortableness, . And I think some of the leadership conferences I've been to recently have really just been about how good you are at sitting with uncomfortableness projects off track, tying it back to project management when that's off track, can you really sit with that uncomfortableness? Do you know what to do? Can you hold those states where you're like, I'm feeling uncomfortable but I'm still going to do something about this. Often some of the questions I get are like, how do you deal with these feelings? And it's not so much dealing with the feelings, you're still a human, you're still gonna get the feelings. It's just about, and I know you know this, but yeah, being able to just kind of sit with them in those difficult and, and those difficult spaces is really important.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (20:59):
Being able to sit in those emotions. Is it just about almost quantum thinking of like, okay, I'm conscious of my reaction to this, but I'm also hearing your feedback. How do these, how do these sit in the same place but having a veneer of like, okay, like super professional or do you think there's an aspect to you where to what extent can you be human and show that response at the time? Yeah,

Dominique Barker (21:22):
I mean I think it's, it's unnatural to to be like completely devoid of any kind of visual emotion, happy, sad, angry, uh, so yeah, self-regulation is important in any context in in life. Are we always all good at it all the time? No, some people are naturally better at it than others. It's knowing when to, uh, and this is hard and I haven't nailed it, but I think it's important is when to deploy certain emotions. Sometimes you might feel like annoyed about something, but you're making a choice to go actually in the bigger picture, tying it back to your strategy, your alignment, that's actually not that important, so I'm just gonna let it go. And then other times you might show a bit more assertion and it is important that as a leader you can show assertion to be able to kind of get your message across.

Dominique Barker (22:10):
If it's important, if it's going to be, then sure absolutely you can show those emotions and those can be a real strength as well. So if you are a really assertive person that you're sometimes told, oh, you're a bit aggressive there, that's okay, just deploy it in another way. So I don't really believe in strengths and weaknesses. I just believe in like where you deploy certain qualities or attributes that you have. And so I think with keeping everything in is unnatural and not authentic and will not build trust. So, so don't do that. But being together like as a, you know, and steady is important as a leader that you're not gonna be all over the place emotionally. But yeah, knowing when to effectively deploy the emotion so they have real impact,

Dr Jaz MacDonald (22:53):
I think that's a, a nice framing of you're not gonna get it right, but being authentic to yourself and making sure you're deploying in a way that's beneficial for like what's the purpose? Why are we in the room? What are we trying to work towards? Yeah, I like that because I think sometimes like the, the risk may be on the other side is to maintain positive working relationships or a perception of like a professional non emotive approach to things. Um, like I, I can think of times in my career where I've raised things and I feel like I'm being really de detached and clear and like logical about what a concern is and then having the response of like, oh you, that's really, you know, you're a perfectionist or you're too emotional about this thing. So I think sometimes you learn or you push towards not standing your ground on things or being firm. And a risk with that is when things really don't go go well, you know, maybe you weren't firm enough to say it's not just a difference of opinion, it's like there's a bigger risk here that maybe I'm not communicating as clearly as I could. If

Dominique Barker (23:54):
You try to dissociate too much from like what you're saying from like how you're feeling, that's just not gonna fly, right? It's, that's too difficult in the moment to be able to do that because humans are emotional beings. You can have like very robust discussions with someone, but knowing that there's no kind of personal attachment to it. So I often do take that view like that I'm just discussing this one thing in this context and that's it. Like that is the thing. And then it will just be completely move on. You're there to discuss a topic and nothing more than that. And I would have very robust discussions with people who I respect a lot and that's part of the territory is, is being able to have those, um, very intellectual, rigorous conversations. But both of you know that you are working towards a common goal. So that's gotta be there, right? It is so hard is what I will say. Like it sounds great when I'm saying it, but if you, you know, I can have very acute reactions to things myself and I know that and um, one of my very good friends is a GP and she's like, yes, you have an acute reaction and then you're fine. But I need to be able to kind of buffer that as well. So it's, that's really important, a really important part of

Dr Jaz MacDonald (25:00):
It. You wanna show up the next day and have the next tricky conversation with the same person that's now about something completely different. You're moving on every day having tough conversations. Yeah,

Dominique Barker (25:10):
And I don't even think about the person, I don't think, I just think because it could not even, it might not even be the next day, it might be the next agenda item where you've gotta go mo or it might be like the meetings have still gotta continue, you know, it's, it's, it's gotta continue. You might have five things on your list and this happens to me all the time where I'm like, okay, number two, yeah, we've had that conversation now number three, right? What are we doing for this item? So you've actually, you, you are living through this stuff from like moment to moment. You have to be able to steward the emotions through. So it's like about kind of recognizing, empathizing, but stewarding the emotion through and not taking it on. So that is something that like only really started to develop in the last few months, but I'm working hard at it and that's the resilience and agility piece. Like how am I stewarding the emotions and not taking them on and not, and just being able to kind of move them across. And if you watch really high level executives, they're very good at this. They have these difficult conversations all the time and they have great stamina for, for that stewarding and are very well practiced. But it does, it does take a lot of time I think. Yeah.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (26:16):
'cause that is um, I think you've made this point already just to emphasize that that's exhausting. That's really hard to hold. All those things simultaneously have strategic conversations and managing tricky emotions or tension in a room like that that's physically draining by the end of a meeting by the end of the day. So that, that touching on that resilience I think is really interesting.

Dominique Barker (26:37):
Equally, it's really hard to have those conversations well and that kind of path of the course if you're wanting to change anything. But the other part of it is if you don't have those conversations, what are you doing? Are you there? Are you contributing? Are you sharing your expertise? Are you showing up? I always say, you know, half of life is just showing up so you gotta show up, you gotta be there, you gotta contribute. That's part of the territory of leadership. It's, yeah, we can all just kind of sit back and take the easy route and not say anything. But if you are really wanting to make change, be transformative, have impact, then those difficult conversations are absolutely part of it.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (27:15):
Don, one of the other things that we, we thought we might touch on was this idea of just in time information. Can you unpack that a little bit?

Dominique Barker (27:23):
Yes. And 'cause I made a mistake with one of my last projects, which I will touch on. So we thought we were doing a great job of giving staff a lot of information to run their projects. Like here's what you need, here's the site, go and find this, here's all your tools, here's pages of information. But what they actually said to us was, Hey, there's just too much and I don't know what to access when and where. So we actually changed it to be aligned with more of this just in time strategy that you've just raised. So it was, we kind of worked through the process and what was happening at each checkpoint in the projects to go, okay, right, so you've just had your kickoff meeting, what do you need now? You need your project management templates, here you go. So then we'd have an email go out at certain points where we would go, this person is having their kickoff.

Dominique Barker (28:09):
We'll tell them this information now. Okay, they're going to upload certain files, they need this information now, then they're in the thick of their project, they need this information now. So being a lot more deliberate with how you're deploying the information and when, so I was thinking more it would be self-service, but people can't be self-service if they don't know what they need when, right? It's less of that. But it was that initial like, hey, we've gotta have a kickoff meeting. What is needed then? What materials, what materials get sent out at the end of the project to remind people what happens on the first of every month? What do people have to do? What do they need to access, how do they need to report? So telling people at the time they need the information because let's be clear, we've all got, you know, a lot of things to do in a, in a day.

Dominique Barker (28:55):
A lot of tasks, a lot of thinking that needs to happen. So giving people information when they don't need it, they're just not gonna engage with it and then they're gonna feel disorientated. So it was about rethinking that like, oh, you only need to think about this part of the process right now because you are here was much more effective. And that is the just in time is we are just giving people information when they need it and we are not bombarding them with a whole lot of stuff where they're trying to kind of wade their way through and it feels really complicated. So we wanna avoid that. And then as you get better, then you can move towards more of that self-service. But it's, it's too hard when you, you dunno what you're looking for frankly.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (29:31):
That difference between the, the type of thinking that holistic stage by stage process thinking of developing assets, resources, information to, I mean really what you want people to do to just jump in when they need it. Um, I I pause on that thought because my personality is a read the manual kind of a person,

Dominique Barker (29:49):
Love

Dr Jaz MacDonald (29:49):
It. Somehow I managed to do that and still get my job done. 'cause you don't want every, you don't want that kind of personality for all people. Like, okay this here's this new process everybody sits and doesn't work for for this long because they're going through the documentation. That difference in style I guess is what, what I'm, I'm getting out of how people will approach new information and, and their appetite for it and how that's distinct from trying to create something more holistic. Seeing that people will just come in at an a, maybe a totally unexpected point to access the information you've put together.

Dominique Barker (30:25):
And it's interesting because when we first moved to hybrid work, say around the, the pandemic, that ability to self-serve became even more important because you're having like less of those hallway conversations. So I think we really doubled down on the self-service where it was like, we've gotta have everything documented because, you know, jazz is at home today and she might need to access this and so she just wants to be able to read it. We do still need that in the world of hybrid work. Like I, I think people forget about that, that we do need really strong documentation so people can self service, but we also need to make sure that we're not giving them information when they don't need it as well. So it's, it's a difficult balance and it's a tension that we have to walk, I think.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (31:06):
Do you think we still have many folks who just, no matter how much self-service you have, they just wanna talk to somebody. They, they just want someone to tell 'em and show 'em how to do it.

Dominique Barker (31:15):
Absolutely. I mean I, and yeah we are humans. Humans like to talk to humans, right? Um, well I do, when I talk about delivering digital transformation and making it stick, one of my key points is have a human available. So when we first moved to our new way of working, we just had a person who's part of their role was just to answer questions about project management. You could just email them, you could talk to them, you could meet with them and you can just ask them questions. And it's not like we can have people doing that as a permanent fixture, but when you've got a new way of working and you really need that height, the care phase and it's really important that you do need somebody that you can just go, Hey, I've got a question, can I ask you? And that they're there to help you with that. So that is absolutely critical.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (31:57):
One of the other things we were thinking about Dom is giving back to stakeholders at what points in a project and in what kinds of ways you think it's important to give back. We

Dominique Barker (32:07):
Had a project management champions group, um, as I mentioned in my role, which was great. And they did a lot of work to really establish project management within their teams and they were really passionate about it. But it was also really helpful for me because I knew that they were out there spreading the word across the organization and engaging in good practice, uh, and also trialing out new technologies and new approaches and, and slightly different ways of doing things, which was great. So at the end of the PDR cycle I actually wrote like, Hey, this is what this group has achieved and I sent it out to everybody so they could consider putting some of those parts into their PDR. And that was about me like trying to play an active role in like, hey, this is what this group has achieved. I know a lot of you will have project management related goals in your PDs.

Dominique Barker (32:54):
I wanna send this to you so you can use some of these parts to, to focus in on, um, you know, what you've achieved, what you're doing. And then not having to write it from scratch because it's just less, less thinking for them. So that was an attempt at trying to, to give something back to the group. When I did PR at university, one of the major things I remember from my degree and it's such a basic thing, is that it's just thank everybody. So it's always about like, thank you for this, thank you for that. And I do that a lot in my personal life as well where it's like, thank you, thank you. Like constantly saying thank you. We don't do enough of it. And it's so easy to, I mean information is so instantaneous, but thanking people, thank you for your effort, thank you for giving this a go.

Dominique Barker (33:34):
Most people are doing great. Keep going. So that, that positive reinforcement and showing some of the benefits as well of what we are getting is, is probably the third thing I would say. So here's some of the reporting from your project. You've done a great job. This is where you can access all of the information that you need. We are now able to get this information out and that takes a really long time like in, in terms of change if you're trying to get good data to actually develop that habitualizing of the collection processes. But that's been a really critical thing as well, is being able to illustrate the value and that can take longer. So it's what are you doing in the meantime to really onboard people

Dr Jaz MacDonald (34:12):
The thank you they're appreciating people having those kind of conversations to that kind of longer term meal of data. I really like that performance review point because if these are champions who are coming into support on a project that takes up a lot of your time and your team's time, but it's something that coming into and and sharing insights from the various other things that are on their workload, they're probably not thinking about it by the time they get to their performance review. So it's like, oh yeah, great. And, and I didn't even have to write it from scratch.

Dominique Barker (34:43):
Just kind of calling people out when they're doing a really good job is important. I did a like a 12 days of Christmas tips, um, at the end of last year where I was like pushing out tips around what to do, how to use ai, how it could help with work, things like that. So I, I try to think of all sorts of funny like engaging things and some of them work and some of them don't. Um, but yeah, so there's a lot of ways you can do that to, to gamify things and make them cool. Well, as cool as it can get in a work context anyway.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (35:11):
Presenting in a an appealing way in that, in that sense. That's cool. So you, you touched on how thinking is something that you also do in your personal life. One of the things that I'm really curious about is project management in your personal life. Dom, as someone who spends a lot of time in the weeds doing these things in practice but also thinking really deeply and and then training other people, people, what does project management look like in your personal life? Because I think if I call out, the reason I'm asking this, I have such a structured personality. Like I love, I love lists . I and I love the idea of like what, how do we have work, like work-life separation that's really important, but there's transferable skills from both. So I, I'm really curious about what projects management looks like, how you, how that's helped you like level up in your family and in your personal life.

Dominique Barker (36:06):
I grew up with a mother who was highly organized and I think I've just kind of an and she had four children, so I get it. Yes, you two. And so I think I've like naturally inherited some of that with a, a layer of tech on top of it even it's probably come through right from my grandmother. I mean I lived with her for a little while when I was in high school and I remember her getting up at 5:30 AM to to do the vacuuming before she went to work. And um, that was totally normal for her. So I think I've probably come from an environment where we've kind of naturally honed those very tight organization skills, information, background about family life. So I've got two children, they're both at primary school. We're a sports mad family. I mean, I dunno how to describe it.

Dominique Barker (36:44):
We do a lot of sport. I do a lot of sport. My husband does. The kids do it. It's all happening. And then also my husband has a job in software engineering management as well, which is really busy. Like many people who come to big cities, we don't have any family support or anything. So we're, we're running the shift. We do have a, a shared family Google calendar that we use. It's color coded and the motto is like, if it's not in the calendar, it does doesn't exist. And so if somebody books something and you have something, well it wasn't in the calendar and I'm sure this is so familiar to so many families, like it's gotta go on the calendar. We're not duplicating up on school events. We've just got like the school calendar has been imported into our calendar, um, because hashtag tech people and we have it all sitting together and it's just color coded against like this is a school event, this is what's coming up at school, this is, and then we've got our family calendar, which is fully open.

Dominique Barker (37:38):
Anything that happens during my workday, which is personal, goes into my work calendar because family doesn't care about that 'cause they're at school and work and doing whatever else. And then I also have that open for my managers, um, reporting to me to see so they can see where I am all the time. So I like to have transparency within the work context as well of what's going on and where I am, um, and where I might be available if they need me. So I have certain days where I do certain things at home and this sounds really funny, but today is Monday so I'm going to be cleaning the floors and washing the floors 'cause that's what I do on a Monday. I have certain days where I change sheets. I have certain days because I can't get all the cleaning and the house like stuff done on one day.

Dominique Barker (38:21):
And then my husband, because we split things 50 50, he takes care of all the cooking and the groceries and so that's all quite divided. So he does all of the food stuff and he does some of the washing stuff. We will do pickup. So we kind of know on this day I do it on that day. And so that's, and then we have some which are more of a gray area and have more flexibility, which is quite difficult. So I think we're probably naturally it sounds great but it's absolutely not. It's like, it's very, there's just not enough time and we are probably overloaded in spots, but we just kind of accept. I think that when you've got a young family, it's just a busy time of your life. It just is. That's how it is. And it won't always be like that. But while we are in it, we are just gonna give it a red hot go. So the kids are going to, you know, they're gonna get opportunities. We are gonna get opportunities. I know we talk about this whole have it all thing with women and it's not about having it all, it's just about what do you want is is the question, what do you want? And so I wanna see the narrative shift a little bit more towards that. But my husband is also naturally organized, so that's, that helps. So we've both kind of got that sort of mindset. Mindset, but even still it's difficult. So I do really acknowledge that.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (39:35):
Thinking about, I guess developmentally of your family, that's like you're talking about being in a hustle phase like earlier in your career, I'm sure you and your husband had experienced like when you are willing to just hustle and every everything's about work as someone who doesn't have kids, thinking about having young kids as a hustle phase, I think is really interesting of what are your key priorities right now? Um, but also I like that you are talking about having specific days for tasks because I think one of the traps when it comes to things like laundry and cleaning floors, there's no end boss . Like you, you can keep, you can do all the laundry in one day or every single day. It's going to keep coming. So I, I really like that providing that scaffolding of a, a regular cadence and you get through what you get through on that day. I do

Dominique Barker (40:23):
Wanna say though that just with the house staff, like I, um, I am often told by visiting family members that I'm really bad at laundry because I literally just throw it all in the machine. I don't sort anything. I just chuck it in and I've got a mixed setting and it just goes in and I just put it on because I'm like, the laundry's gonna get washed. That's it. I just don't have that kind of time and I, it's not a good use of my time. So I am quite careful about where I spend my time. I'm like, that's not a good use of time. It is not a good use of time for me to sit there sorting out laundry. It's all gonna get washed, it's probably gonna be fine. And if it's not, then big deal. It just doesn't bother me. But if it really bothers you, then you should do it. 'cause I still iron. I really like ironing because that's like important to me. It's like a, I don't know why. I just like things, I like my tea towels to be ironed. So it's like if it's, but if you don't care then just don't worry about it. Just like let it go. Like don't, don't worry. So it's what is your kind of threshold for tolerance for certain things. I think that's important too. Yeah.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (41:21):
And if it's not gonna get done otherwise, like what's the MVP? What's the minimum viable product that you can do and be happy and move on to the next thing.

Dominique Barker (41:29):
I still do think it's important to show up. So I really, really value that. So if I say I'm gonna be somewhere, am I actually there, like the kids get to all of their practices, that's really important to us as a family that if they're part of a team, that they're showing up that they're doing that. What are you gonna prioritize? What's important to you? What's important to your family? What do you value? And then holding those things. And that should steer where you're going.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (41:52):
I see absolute direct parallels to running a project at work. Where are we going? What does, what are the things that we need to achieve? What are the nice to haves? What is the, this is outta scope. Like we just know .

Dominique Barker (42:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like sorting the washing is definitely outta scope. That is out. That is scope creep. Jaz creep, creep.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (42:13):
Yeah. Anybody wants to criticize for that when they visit. You can say that. That's not a limitation. That was never an intention of the project. Thank

Dominique Barker (42:20):
No, I never, yeah, I'm never busy doing other things. More important things. So yeah, we don't have enough women in techs. I'm flying that flag. So there you go. .

Dr Jaz MacDonald (42:31):
Um, yeah, you are busy. You, you are busy and I often will see on LinkedIn and various, you know, or even just in having conversations with you, you've always got stuff on. So last month you presented at the Women in Tech Fest. Yeah. Um, and I, I guess this would be a really nice point if we can pause and say what other things do you have on or you've previously done. Where can we point folks to other dom goodness to learn from the, the insights you've developed?

Dominique Barker (42:58):
Yeah, so there are a few things that I've got on the go and a few things coming up in July. I am in Canberra, um, on a panel at the, the Data Governance summit. So I'm really looking forward to that. I'll be talking about cool ai, which is one of my favorite topics. So that'll be a great conference. So, um, head along to that, uh, recently I was at the Women in Tech Fest in Sydney, which is a always a great and I would take almost life changing event for the types of speakers that they have there. And I spoke about, uh, resilience and agility. So some of the concepts that we've had today where you can see that resilience narrative coming through. And also I think some of my, uh, there's been a few interviews floating around on, on quantum thinking and my approach to that as well. So we can certainly share those, those out, uh, as well with the audience.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (43:46):
Beautiful. So we've got some links I can pop in the show notes. Mm-hmm

Dominique Barker (43:49):
. Definitely. Lovely.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (43:51):
Yeah, lovely. As a way to maybe round out the episode, Dom, I wonder if there might be other resources that you've found particularly insightful or useful in your career that we can point people to, like books or talks or whatever it is.

Dominique Barker (44:06):
Yes. Uh, there are a couple of, um, fantastic books and I will mention, um, one of the books called is called Bad Change. Um, and it's by a previous colleague. I will get, um, Jaz to to link it. It's an Australian author. It's really cute comic strip around, um, bad change. And it's, it's really fun and great. So I will link out, um, to that. And also my favorite project management book is by Evan Leybourn. Um, he's an Australian Agile enthusiast and the book is called hashtag No Projects. Um, it's written quite a few years ago, but um, lots of the project management approaches that I engage have been influenced by that book, which I have just found really useful. So I will share those as well. Uh, and one other one that I will mention is the Intangibles of leadership, uh, is a, is a great book that set me on my leadership journey.

Dominique Barker (44:58):
I think probably one of the pitfalls though when I read that book was that I tried to do everything in the book and then someone pointed out to me, you can't be perfect. And I thought, yeah, that's fair because I felt like, oh no, I don't have this so I need to develop that more. And they're like, yes, you're not gonna have everything and you're never going to. And I thought, yeah, that's reasonable. Um, so, so read that book, but I just caution you to be a curious observer and don't worry if you don't have everything 'cause nobody does. And that's actually becomes part of your quirk as a leader as well. That and part of your leadership identity. So I will share those out. Jess?

Dr Jaz MacDonald (45:33):
Yeah. Beautiful. I laugh 'cause I fully relate to that. It's like, okay, this is the checklist that I have to actualize. Um, but to see, to acknowledge like actually we need, we need people with different levels of skills in different areas and, and team up with other people if they're stronger in one thing than you are. Um, so yeah, that's, yes, that's a nice thing to share.

Dominique Barker (45:53):
I think one of the things was wisdom and I was like, oh no, like I've already been doing my career for like 10 years, like how I'm not double all here. Like how wise can I really be ? So it was, um, so yeah, so just read it and just things will develop and that's great.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (46:09):
You wanna buy this?

Dominique Barker (46:10):
Pardon? Where

Dr Jaz MacDonald (46:11):
Where do I buy wisdom? How do I download it? . I know,

Dominique Barker (46:14):
I know. I was like, how do I get that? Oh, you just mean I have to wait 20 years and I'll acquire it, what I need it now. Um, so definitely those types of things like don't, you know, it's, it's the typical female thing. We're like, Nope, I don't have that. I can't be a leader. But it's not No, you absolutely can. And some of the things you don't have actually become the quirks that people like about your leadership style as well. So, so, so hold onto those things that's important.

Dr Jaz MacDonald (46:42):
Oh, that's beautiful. . I I think that's a really lovely place to, to finish up. Thank you so much Dom. Really appreciate you coming in and having a chat. Love your work.

Dominique Barker (46:51):
Thank you. Love your work too. Jaz, great to talk to you.